I know the Wynn canister filter helps efficiency of dust collectors but my budget is really tight as a one man shop that doesn't have a client base. My work is all family stuff no production. I restore furniture and build cabinets, and rocking horses for grandkids and etc. I recently purchased a Harbor Freight 2hp DC and want to make it as efficient as possible. So I organized a plan for doing this. This is my objective: To create six-sided /hexagonal wood disk and donut for assembling six 10x24x1" MARV13 filters. Will incorporate J channel for filter framework, silicone caulk and foil tape to seal it. My "on paper" total costs is $118.64 buying all materials new from Lowes and filter 6pk from filtersfast.com. Perhaps my first question should be: has anyone tried anything like this? I'm not an engineer but I do try to pre plan things and draw lots of diagrams. Any thoughts pro or con on this adventure? (My first ever post by a newbe)
Make Your Own Canister Filter for HF 2hp Dust Collector
- Thread starter rusty iron
- Start date
- Status
I wish I could say I was especially optimistic but have some very real doubts as to performance and robustness versus the proper cartridge filter and whether the cost savings will actually be realized.
A typical DC cartridge filter has in excess of 100sq.ft. of filter surface area composed of deep closely spaced pleats. By comparison your filters will likely have somewhere in the 10s of sq.ft. of surface area. The DC filter is typically contained within a steel cage both to protect the filter as well as to help contain the filter material and prevent it from billowing outward (and possibly failing). The actual filter material is also typically quite heavy duty and will yield a long service life before failure and some can be washed a few times, if necessary, to extend their lifespan.
I do not know off hand which which Wynn filter is meant to mate up to the HF DC, but when I visited the Wynn online shop it appears that there are many potentially suitable candidates for $150-200, or thereabouts. When I evaluate a project like this I like to consider the benefit to risk ratio in determining if it is worth considering taking the chance on a, shall we say, "creative" solution. In this case the best possible benefit versus the proper Wynn filter would appear to be a savings on the order of $30-100. However, the risks are many, from catastrophic failure (total loss of investment) to reduced DC performance to greatly shortened filter life expectancy -- to yield real savings your filter would ideally need to equal the performance of a Wynn filter while lasting at least half as long as the equivalent Wynn filter. How confident are you that your filter can meet or exceed those criteria so that you have a reasonable chance to reap the benefits of the cost savings? Lastly, assuming spectacular success on your very first attempt, what value, if any, do you place on the time and labor you will be investing in this project as this adds to the ultimate cost?
In the final analysis, though, only you can answer many of these questions and the degree of risk versus reward you are prepared to accept. In the worst possible outcome you will be out the cost of $118 plus the cost of a new Wynn filter (plus a possible shop cleaning if subject to catastrophic failure in use) plus your time and labor. In the best possible case you are saving perhaps $30-100 it would seem.
Regardless, I wish you all the best on whatever solution you decide upon.
PS -- The dollar figures quoted above are based upon representative samples taken from the Wynn online store. If the required filter must be custom manufactured then the costs/savings quoted above will need to be adjusted accordingly to reflect actual filter cost.
A typical DC cartridge filter has in excess of 100sq.ft. of filter surface area composed of deep closely spaced pleats. By comparison your filters will likely have somewhere in the 10s of sq.ft. of surface area. The DC filter is typically contained within a steel cage both to protect the filter as well as to help contain the filter material and prevent it from billowing outward (and possibly failing). The actual filter material is also typically quite heavy duty and will yield a long service life before failure and some can be washed a few times, if necessary, to extend their lifespan.
I do not know off hand which which Wynn filter is meant to mate up to the HF DC, but when I visited the Wynn online shop it appears that there are many potentially suitable candidates for $150-200, or thereabouts. When I evaluate a project like this I like to consider the benefit to risk ratio in determining if it is worth considering taking the chance on a, shall we say, "creative" solution. In this case the best possible benefit versus the proper Wynn filter would appear to be a savings on the order of $30-100. However, the risks are many, from catastrophic failure (total loss of investment) to reduced DC performance to greatly shortened filter life expectancy -- to yield real savings your filter would ideally need to equal the performance of a Wynn filter while lasting at least half as long as the equivalent Wynn filter. How confident are you that your filter can meet or exceed those criteria so that you have a reasonable chance to reap the benefits of the cost savings? Lastly, assuming spectacular success on your very first attempt, what value, if any, do you place on the time and labor you will be investing in this project as this adds to the ultimate cost?
In the final analysis, though, only you can answer many of these questions and the degree of risk versus reward you are prepared to accept. In the worst possible outcome you will be out the cost of $118 plus the cost of a new Wynn filter (plus a possible shop cleaning if subject to catastrophic failure in use) plus your time and labor. In the best possible case you are saving perhaps $30-100 it would seem.
Regardless, I wish you all the best on whatever solution you decide upon.
PS -- The dollar figures quoted above are based upon representative samples taken from the Wynn online store. If the required filter must be custom manufactured then the costs/savings quoted above will need to be adjusted accordingly to reflect actual filter cost.
Ehpoole and Wormil thank you much for your inputs. I didn't consider all the points Ehpoole brought out and I at end of the day I am practical enough to reconsider the whole thing. However, I would like to know more about that truck filter. When first checking things out I ran across and watched several effective looking youtube upgrades with Wynn filters. The following are my references before starting this adventure. These Wynn filters will fit the HF DC: #35A274BOL is 274sq ft MERV 10 @ 0.5 micron $115.00 +sh #35A100SBOL is 100sq ft MERV11 @1.0 micron $161.00 +sh #35A274BLOL is 274sq ft MERV 10 @ 0.5 micron $115.00 +sh #C1425C (don't know sq ft) 18.75od x 14 id x 25 lg MERV 15 @ 0.5 micron $177.00 +sh The Filtersfast.com filter I considered for use: #FFM1361 10w x 24h x 1tk with 18 pleats/ft MERV 13 with galvanized metal support grid @ 0.3 micron 6 pk $49.99 + $6.00sh Don't know how to figure sq ft of this filter either. Although it appears comparable to the Wynn filtration it may not have the structural strength as the canister. Does that prove round is better then flat? All said: (pockets pulled inside out) I don't have the $ to invest if the project fails to prove viable and by applying the objectives pointed out by Ehpoole I will reconsider the Wynn unless I can find the truck filter mentioned by Wormil. To improve the efficiency of the DC thus the quality of shop air is the bottom line. Hey! It's always best to have a pow wow for raising the issues, and I appreciate you guys pulling back the curtain on this deal. I'll look into more key aspects before I get too far down the road. Thanks again men, for your replies. Both are greatly appreciated.
Try this place:
http://wynnenv.com/woodworking-filters/35a-series-application-notes/
They have cartridges starting a little over $100 and tell you how to mount it to your HF DC. I have one of their cartridges on my Delta DC.
http://wynnenv.com/woodworking-filters/35a-series-application-notes/
They have cartridges starting a little over $100 and tell you how to mount it to your HF DC. I have one of their cartridges on my Delta DC.
Rusty,
I would estimate about 5 sq.ft. of surface area for each of the 10x24x1" filter panels. (10"x2"=20 sq.in./pleat; 18pleats x 2ft=720 sq.in./panel; 720 sq.in / 144 sq.in. = 5 sq.ft.; there are 144 sq.in. to a sq.ft 12" x 12" = 144 sq.in./sq.ft.) So that would come to a total surface area of 30 sq.ft. for your 6 panel project. Hopefully my math all checks out, if not then others should feel free to correct me.
A 1 micron filter is sufficient for your DC. Get as much surface area as possible, but keep in mind that a 0.5 micron filter will require much more surface area than a 1 micron to maintain a comparable level of airflow (I would guess 2-3x). But as to which you opt for, that's really up to you and some of these debates on dust collection can border on religious amongst some but you will do well with either 0.5 or 1.0 micron so long as there is sufficient surface area to avoid excessive restriction on the airflow. With either you will periodically have to "whack" (a good technical term) the sides of the filter to knock the caked dust loose so as to maintain airflow over the long haul.
I'm afraid I have no details regarding the "back of a truck" filter that was mentioned but perhaps some others will. Sometimes with such deals it is difficult to know how much trust to place in claimed specifications on such deals because they are sometimes exaggerated (such as calling a 2 or 5 micron filter a 1 micron filter) with no easy way of verifying such for yourself. With Wynn, or any other quality brand, you can be absolutely certain as to what you will be receiving but you will pay more, but which way you go is truly up to you as we all weigh such factors differently.
As for round versus flat filters, the main reason they are round is two fold. Firstly, round structures are naturally stronger than flat or square structures due to their arch (all other factors being equal). A DC impeller generates greater static pressure than most HVAC blowers, so flat HVAC filters may not be rigid enough to hold together (such filters also frequently have a lot of air leakage around the interior edges of the filter material). Secondly, many DC's that ship from the manufacturers include an internal beater that you can spin (or in some cases motorized) that "flicks" the pleats to knock off caked on dust. It is much easier to design the beater to conform to a circular filter than any other shape. A DIY upgrade will generally not have a beater but you can still whack on the sides of the filter to achieve much the same result.
I hope this addresses a few of your inquiries above, but if you have any other questions please feel free to ask and I, or any other member, wlil usually do our best to try and help out. This is usually a very helpful group of people with everyone wanting to pitch in if they feel they have something of value to contribute to a discussion. But most of all, welcome to NCWW as we are pleased to count you among our membership.
I would estimate about 5 sq.ft. of surface area for each of the 10x24x1" filter panels. (10"x2"=20 sq.in./pleat; 18pleats x 2ft=720 sq.in./panel; 720 sq.in / 144 sq.in. = 5 sq.ft.; there are 144 sq.in. to a sq.ft 12" x 12" = 144 sq.in./sq.ft.) So that would come to a total surface area of 30 sq.ft. for your 6 panel project. Hopefully my math all checks out, if not then others should feel free to correct me.
A 1 micron filter is sufficient for your DC. Get as much surface area as possible, but keep in mind that a 0.5 micron filter will require much more surface area than a 1 micron to maintain a comparable level of airflow (I would guess 2-3x). But as to which you opt for, that's really up to you and some of these debates on dust collection can border on religious amongst some but you will do well with either 0.5 or 1.0 micron so long as there is sufficient surface area to avoid excessive restriction on the airflow. With either you will periodically have to "whack" (a good technical term) the sides of the filter to knock the caked dust loose so as to maintain airflow over the long haul.
I'm afraid I have no details regarding the "back of a truck" filter that was mentioned but perhaps some others will. Sometimes with such deals it is difficult to know how much trust to place in claimed specifications on such deals because they are sometimes exaggerated (such as calling a 2 or 5 micron filter a 1 micron filter) with no easy way of verifying such for yourself. With Wynn, or any other quality brand, you can be absolutely certain as to what you will be receiving but you will pay more, but which way you go is truly up to you as we all weigh such factors differently.
As for round versus flat filters, the main reason they are round is two fold. Firstly, round structures are naturally stronger than flat or square structures due to their arch (all other factors being equal). A DC impeller generates greater static pressure than most HVAC blowers, so flat HVAC filters may not be rigid enough to hold together (such filters also frequently have a lot of air leakage around the interior edges of the filter material). Secondly, many DC's that ship from the manufacturers include an internal beater that you can spin (or in some cases motorized) that "flicks" the pleats to knock off caked on dust. It is much easier to design the beater to conform to a circular filter than any other shape. A DIY upgrade will generally not have a beater but you can still whack on the sides of the filter to achieve much the same result.
I hope this addresses a few of your inquiries above, but if you have any other questions please feel free to ask and I, or any other member, wlil usually do our best to try and help out. This is usually a very helpful group of people with everyone wanting to pitch in if they feel they have something of value to contribute to a discussion. But most of all, welcome to NCWW as we are pleased to count you among our membership.
The truck filter is a Donaldson P181099.
Outer Diameter: 13.83" (351 mm)
Inner Diameter: 9.49" (241 mm)
Length: 18.06" (459 mm)
Height: 16.06" (408 mm)
Gasket ID: 9.88" (178 mm)
Page 133
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/070118.pdf
More info:
https://dynamic.donaldson.com/WebStore/search/item_detail.html?section=10061&item=89915
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/007336.pdf
Page 9 explains micron rating
https://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/073667.pdf
Donaldson is claiming 99.9+% efficiency
Wynn page on efficiency, basically it says their test is better than anyone else's test
http://wynnenv.com/filter-efficiency/
Wynn claims 99.99% efficiency minimum but some filters are higher
I'll leave it to you to decide if (maybe) 0.09% is worth another $100.
Outer Diameter: 13.83" (351 mm)
Inner Diameter: 9.49" (241 mm)
Length: 18.06" (459 mm)
Height: 16.06" (408 mm)
Gasket ID: 9.88" (178 mm)
Page 133
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/070118.pdf
More info:
https://dynamic.donaldson.com/WebStore/search/item_detail.html?section=10061&item=89915
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/007336.pdf
Page 9 explains micron rating
https://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/073667.pdf
Donaldson is claiming 99.9+% efficiency
Wynn page on efficiency, basically it says their test is better than anyone else's test
http://wynnenv.com/filter-efficiency/
Wynn claims 99.99% efficiency minimum but some filters are higher
I'll leave it to you to decide if (maybe) 0.09% is worth another $100.
Airflow through the system is important and needs to be considered in your plan. It doesn't really matter that a filter can trap XX.X% when very little airflow travels through the system. When system airflow drops, less dust is captured and more dust gets into your air and lungs. Things that help with airflow are lots more filter surface area, better separation before the filter (a great diy separator is here: http://www.jpthien.com/cy.htm ) to keep filters clean, elimination of any right angle connections in the piping/hoses between the tool and the dust collector, using 6" ID pipe vs 4"ID and using the least amount of flex tubing as you can get away with. Smooth pipe creates less resistance to the airflow than flex tubing.
Bottom line is the HF dust collector has limited airflow in the best of conditions...ie: no filter and no tool or hose connected. Any filter, hose or tool connection only makes it lower.
Those new dust masks and/or switching to hand/foot powered tools look more appealing every day.
Bottom line is the HF dust collector has limited airflow in the best of conditions...ie: no filter and no tool or hose connected. Any filter, hose or tool connection only makes it lower.
Those new dust masks and/or switching to hand/foot powered tools look more appealing every day.
Thanks Ehpoole, Wormil, JimD and Tarhead for all the great info. I'm now doin more thinkin then sawin. Which is a good thing. I'm like Jerry Clower wearing both suspenders and a belt for safety (I was member of medical safety council/committee) and believe in the value of exposing the whole list of options and, some by trial and error. Ehpoole's thoroughness is fantastic and I thank you sir for the option angles you bring out. Wormil I thank you for the Donaldson filter info you suggested. I did check em out, finding at least one with a 99.99% rating. (http://www.finditparts.com/search?utf8=✓&s=P182038) I noted too that their filters have wire grid inside as well. They look to be comparable to the Wynn. And Tarhead 's info on the JP Thien baffle is something I'm already genning up for the DC. Thanks man. I also want to move the impeller/motor assy. upward and turned 90deg with input down, motor on top and direct coupled to the collector (the part that has the particulate bags). I have a blue plastic drum for using with a Thien baffle. fle A canister filter by it's position a-top the collector housing is basically a "victim" of dust particles flying around looking for a way out. So my thought is the collector interior needs modifying as well. Perhaps an internal extension to the input port directed down about 15deg and the opening bowl-shaped baffle to the canister extended down approx 3 - 4" with a 9"opening 'behind' the input port. My theory: gather in all particles thru the Thien baffled input with heavy and some light particles falling and only dust entering into the impeller, then into collector immediately blowing downward all stuff into the lower see-thru bag, and very little if any dust finding a way to the canister. I'm looking at this as choreographing dust movement the same as with traffic or electrons. Each has to be 'gated' for the proper flow. But you men all have great information and I really do appreciate your thoughts and input, AND mostly your time helping with this DC project. At some point I hope to post pictures. Again thank you.
JimD, How does the Wynn canister work out for you ? Does it get much of the fine dust in it? Do you have a Thien baffle as well? Thanks for your time and input.
Tarhead hit the nail on the head. Remember, the whole purpose of a dust collector is to "collect" dust to keep your shop and lungs as dust free as possible, it is not to separate or filter the dust. That is a secondary function which is only needed if you attempt to recycle the discharged air back into your shop- you'll spend less money and will have the absolute best dust collection possible if you omit the filter and discharge directly outside. If you must, because of neighbors, etc. build a pre-separator or cyclone to reduce the amount of dust discharged. In my humble opinion, it is a total waste of time and money to put a filter on a single stage DC, and only slightly better if you have anything less than a cyclone or other pre-separator that doesn't do an excellent job. What happens is dust quickly clogs the filter media and reduces the air flow there and most importantly at the machine where the dust is generated and where you will be standing and breathing it.
Fine dust does not settle easily or quickly. It can stay suspended in the air for 30 min. or longer, and will easily follow any air flow, which in your case will be towards/into the canister filter. Very little of it will settle out into a plastic bag until the system is turned off and the filter cleaned.
I'd like to build an outdoor separator like this mid 19th century set up which collects chips in the bottom and vents fines to the atmosphere:
O.K. so let's assume that I cannot vent outside, I have a "Decent" dust (chip) collector, and I choose to add this (or a Wynn) filter - I still don't have all of the accouterments of a Jet DC1100 or DC1200 http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/dc-...hp-1ph-115-230v-2-micron-canister-kit/708659K or a Powermatic PM-1300
Such as the "Vortex cone" (r) on the jet or the "Turbo cone" (r) on the Powermatic nor the handle to rotate to "clean" the filter on both units.
So at some point in time, I have to take that Donaldson filter off, clean it out and THEN I better have some KILLER PPE (Personal Protection Equipment) right?
Or am I missing something?
As a follow-on to my previous post in this thread and others on this topic, below is some text taken from the Donaldson Technical Reference Section (pp 228 in the link in Wormil's post) about filter cleaning. While most DC manufacturers (and "woodworking" filter vendors) will hate to admit it, the following also applies to DC filters which operate in a much harsher environment than a truck filter- they are exposed to higher concentrations of dust in a wider range of particle sizes, with particles often often having abrasive qualities (like Teak which has a high silica content), and must endure higher air/dust velocities and pressure, yet still allow very high CFM to be of any use. I added the bolding and color:
The filter works fine. Most of the time I have had it, I did not have a thien baffle on the DC. Later I added one to stop the filter from needing cleaning so often. I also added the paddle cleaner that the website I posted shows and it helps. But it doesn't fully clean the cartridge. I have a little plastic cyclone on my shop vacumn to keep it's HEPA filter clean and that works great. The thien baffle doesn't seem as effective, but I didn't use it for real long before moving creating a lul in my woodworking (new shop built but not really set up yet).
Jim,
I think I am a little "Vision challenged" on a Monday...
I assume you are referring to the Wynn...application notes you posted - but I am not seeing anything on a paddle cleaner there - must be missing it...
Can you post a direct link?
It's wood dust not uranium.
Wear a dust mask or stand up wind.BTW, here is a really cool video on reducing table saw dust. Reminds of educational videos from the 60's & 70's.
How to improve dust control at circular saw benches
http://youtu.be/_4kyohTbNTQ
So its like going to a family reunion where uncle Harry keeps telling everyone to pull his finger?:rotflm:It's wood dust not uranium.
BTW, here is a really cool video on reducing table saw dust. Reminds of educational videos from the 60's & 70's.
How to improve dust control at circular saw benches
http://youtu.be/_4kyohTbNTQ
I looked for it and didn't find it either. I don't know if it was something that came with the filter or whether they used to have it on their site and removed it. It doesn't completely clean the filter but is something you can do without having to spend a lot of time.
While I was looking for that cleaner, I went to the Oneida website. I am seriously thinking about an Oneida Super dust deputy. I have a dust deputy on my shop vacumn and it has essentially eliminated cleaning the aftermarket hepa filter. If it did the same thing for my DC, it would be worth (?) the $170 price. Pricey for plastic but the darned things work. I'm even thinking of just putting the DC outside (with at least a roof over it) with the super dust deputy but possibly no other filter. It will blow some dust after the cyclone but not a lot and outside..... It would also improve the performance of my DC by reducing back pressure.
Jim,
If you are looking for a project or are simply cheap (thrifty) like me - look into the Thien baffle that Mark (Tarhead) mentioned - there are a lot of converts here and I saw Mike Davis' system (Powermatic with a pleated filter) and there was NOTHING in the bag (his baffle is on top of a trash can) al the chips seperated in there - not sure how much dust is in the filter...
Also (if anyone cares) I got my Penn State Industries catalogue this evening (low and behold)
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DCANISTER2.html
(That is the 19" version $199.95) Shipping is the killer - $50!!!
A filter WITH a clean-out paddle...
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DCANISTER4.html
(that is the 13.5" version for $129.95) Shipping is "Only" $27 making it $156.95 reasonable - but I think I need the 19" version on my Delta... $249 is NOT happening - IIRC I only paid $200 for it!
If you are looking for a project or are simply cheap (thrifty) like me - look into the Thien baffle that Mark (Tarhead) mentioned - there are a lot of converts here and I saw Mike Davis' system (Powermatic with a pleated filter) and there was NOTHING in the bag (his baffle is on top of a trash can) al the chips seperated in there - not sure how much dust is in the filter...
Also (if anyone cares) I got my Penn State Industries catalogue this evening (low and behold)
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DCANISTER2.html
(That is the 19" version $199.95) Shipping is the killer - $50!!!
A filter WITH a clean-out paddle...
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DCANISTER4.html
(that is the 13.5" version for $129.95) Shipping is "Only" $27 making it $156.95 reasonable - but I think I need the 19" version on my Delta... $249 is NOT happening - IIRC I only paid $200 for it!
- Status
Premier Sponsor
Our Sponsors
LATEST FOR SALE LISTINGS
-
SOLD -- $75: Gast moa v113 Vacuum Pump Veneer, 60" bag and board- Started by peterdnight
- Replies: 1
-
GONE: Gladiator 5 cleats, 10 hangers, Paper Towel and Shelf
- Started by peterdnight
- Replies: 3
-
SOLD -- $100 Makita mac700 portable air + grex pin nailer + 2 others + 50' hose
- Started by peterdnight
- Replies: 1
-
-
