Lathe spindle morse taper at headstock...How to clean superficial rust inside the taper?

[Truefire]

This conversation actually took place before just a few days ago underneath another topic but it was really never fully completed. So I decided to receive some further clarification and began another topic with this title so others could find via a search at a later date.

I have some superficial surface rust up inside my headstock morse taper that needs removing. I have used some 0000 grade steel wool saturated in Evapo-Rust and that did a decent job but there is still a little bit left up inside. Although I am overdue for one of those synthetic taper cleaners I have been thinking about going another route. That is, running a #2 reamer and lapping the walls a little. I was under the impression that the spindle shaft would have to be removed and the taper reaming be done on a metal lathe.

However, I have heard that it could potentially be done while the spindle shaft remains in my lathe. Anyone have any suggestions, reamer brands, type, quality, methods? Thanks, chris

 

[Michael Mathews]

How about using a bottle wire brush mounted in a drill? spin the lathe one direction and the wire brush in the other. Add a bit of WD40 or other rust dissolver/lubricant and I would think it should be good to go. You just might need a morse taper reamer the make the surface smooth, but possibly not.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Michael

 

[Hmerkle]

Chris,
I drilled and reamed a #1 tail stock into a #2 years ago.

(that is why I have a #2 taper reamer...)

I in your situation you could take the reamer and put it into the head stock, bring the tail-stock up and place your live center into the center drilled hole in the end of the reamer and turn the head stock spindle to lightly re-surface you MT.

You are welcome to borrow my reamer... just not sure how to get it all the way out there to you!
I plan to be up in the Raleigh area next week, maybe we could arrange a Pony express from there out to you?

 

[CaptnA]

Another option you might try is a shotgun bore cleaning brush. The brass is softer that the steel of your taper so you can not (should not) hurt your lathe. Okay, someone could if they try hard enough by shoving the center of the brush into the taper, but the brass bristles should not. A good brass brush should cost about $3 -$5 at most places or even a gun show. You could already have one. It has been a while but I want to say a 20 g fit the best. I might be wrong and used a 12g. I'll take a few down to the shop and test fit what works best on mine.
Be sure to gt the brass brush and not a steel one.

 

[junquecol]

Use a pencil eraser. Not the add on kind, but actual eraser on pencil. You can also use a "Scotch Brite" pad. This is how I clean router collets.

 

[Mike Davis]

Just oil it and it will be fine.

 

[Roy G]

I agree with Mike. Don't do anything major. If you ream out the taper, you risk making it too deep for your centers and then you would have to shorten the nose of your spindle. If it is so rusted that the centers don't line up, you might look into replacing the spindle.

Roy G

 

[Mike Davis]

I don't think you will hurt it by hand turning a reamer, unless very sloppy about it. I really don't think you would damage it.

But I don't believe in obsessing over a superficial blemish.

A slight surface rust won't hurt anything, a little oil will keep it from getting any worse.

 

[Truefire]

All excellent ideas, thanks. Although, I have done some of those already described, I have not however used any kind of reamer yet to polish the taper. Yeah the surface rust wouldn't really be a huge issue I suppose and has not been other than I just replaced some bearings on this lathe. I am aiming to polish the spindle MT well enough to enable me to remove some of my tooling without having to use a mallet.

I currently have no issue with removing any of my solid tapers with a hand driven knockout bar. However, when using tapers which require a drawbar, upon time of removal - they require a gentle, single strike to threaded knockout tool in order to remove. No, I'm not overtightening the drawbar nut, barely snugging it. Its just related to that extra little bit of friction created by that rust I do believe.

I would love to borrow the taper reamer Hank and could pay for shipping. But boxing up and such might be too much to ask. By the time I pay shipping both directions and such I could probably just buy my own. I'll have to check out my machine company catalog i have stowed away. Is the reamer that you have Hank aggressive or does that have to do with feed pressure? I use reamers all the time with my woodworking but have perpendicular teeth. I'm just wondering if some of those metal reamers for tapers might actually pull the tooling into the metal when used? I've seen some that have winding helical cutting edges? I would not want to go through the school of hard knocks on this one.

Thanks gents. -chris

 

[Mike Davis]

What you describe is exactly as it should be, there has to be some friction to keep the tapered shaft from slipping.

i would leave it alone.

 

[Truefire]

Yeah Mike, I have always thought it was normal myself and hasn't been too much of an issue to me. But I have had some others advise otherwise. Some have stated that although its drawbar tightened, those tools should still come out without any assistance from a mallet. But the funny thing is I have had to utilize a mallet since it was new, the past 10 years or so now. Hasn't been an issue to me and although I am a seasoned woodturner, I still understand "I don't know all". So I was taking in what was being said, respectfully and with high regard.

 

[Mike Davis]

My tail stock is a number four Morse taper, I had it professionally fitted at a machine shop that does top end work for many factories and even makes parts for sewing machine manufacturers. I can slip either of my accessories in by hand and you can't pull them out. I have to use the 3/4 inch ACME screw to extract them. If it didn't have the screw I would have to tap them out with a mallet.

 

[Hmerkle]

All excellent ideas, thanks. Although, I have done some of those already described, I have not however used any kind of reamer yet to polish the taper. Yeah the surface rust wouldn't really be a huge issue I suppose and has not been other than I just replaced some bearings on this lathe. I am aiming to polish the spindle MT well enough to enable me to remove some of my tooling without having to use a mallet.

I currently have no issue with removing any of my solid tapers with a hand driven knockout bar. (I think this is typical) However, when using tapers which require a drawbar, upon time of removal - they require a gentle, single strike to threaded knockout tool in order to remove. (That seems wrong - especially if you are not over tightening the drawbar - but I just had another thought - are you sure this tooling is right?) most #2 MT shafts are plain but - there are ones like this;

This is obviously a drill chuck (#2 MT / Jacobs taper) but it was the first picture I found - with that center relief it makes it easier to remove the shaft - you could add this to one of your draw-bar chucks to see if it makes a difference - now as Mike so rightly points out - you need the friction to drive the wood you are turning - so you don't want to sacrifice it all - but if memory serves - the reason you are looking at this is because you were changing bearings in your lathe head stock. It is not right of me to Arm-chair mechanic, but I think you thought you might be beating on them right?)

Last thought and I will quit - you mention later in this post that you "use reamers all the time with my woodworking" you many people think that reamers only have a high rotational force, but they can create a LOT of end force too. If so, this could ultimately be the source of your problem -MAYBE the end-force you are applying during drilling and reaming is jamming your draw bar?

No, I'm not overtightening the drawbar nut, barely snugging it. Its just related to that extra little bit of friction created by that rust I do believe.

My suggestion is to just remove the rust either with a reamer or scotchbrite - DO NOT CREATE ANY CHIPS! you should have little to no end force on the reamer - you might even be able to do it by hand, but the tail stock in the center hole of the reamer keeps it on center, that is why I suggested that.

I would love to borrow the taper reamer Hank and could pay for shipping. (again you are welcome to it - PM me your address and check the cost of a USPS regional box - I think they are $6 or less and if we can figure out a pony express I plan to be in the Raleigh area next week anyway... you would just have to get it back to me...) But boxing up and such might be too much to ask. (never too much to ask) By the time I pay shipping both directions and such I could probably just buy my own. (I will look again, but I believe they are $80 - $150)
I'll have to check out my machine company catalog i have stowed away. Is the reamer that you have Hank aggressive or does that have to do with feed pressure? (this one is a strait flute tapered reamer - so it is all dependent upon end pressure) I use reamers all the time with my woodworking but have perpendicular teeth. I'm just wondering if some of those metal reamers for tapers might actually pull the tooling into the metal when used? I've seen some that have winding helical cutting edges?(strait flutes, shouldn't do that) I would not want to go through the school of hard knocks on this one.

Thanks gents. -chris

All that said - Mike has a point, and my be right to just leave it alone.

I wonder sometimes about the "robustness" of our little Jet lathes and the care (or lack thereof) with which they are built and machined - if the I.D. taper of your spindle is bell-mouthed - this is exactly what would happen (end pressure would "Jam" in place) - if it were undersized you would have a hard time keeping a MT tool in place.

 

[Truefire]

I think I am going to split a dowel rod and use a cut piece of the gray-grade Scotchbrite pad fitted in the slot. Douse it with Evapo-rust and see what it does with the lathe on low speed. If this doesn't work all that well, I might end up borrowing that reamer from you Hank.

You are correct Hank, I'm 'KNOW' there are some significant longitudinal forces being imposed on those mandrels when using the reamer in my woodworking. Although, I did indeed mention I use them all the time because I do, I do not necessarily use them everytime when these type mandrels are being used. Yet, still have to remove them as discussed.

I don't know.

I do know that the tapers are precise on all of my custom tooling. I have had these made by some excellent machinists and although I haven't verified the MT2 against a 'go'/ 'no-go' gauge, I am hoping they did. I totally understand your concern and angle you are coming from. I do not have relief pockets cut into the taper (as in your picture posted) on any of my tooling, not even my dead center spurs that are composed of 'solid thru' tapers have that facet.

I just think this issue is gunk plus the 'pull' created from the drawbar and the 'push' created by the tailstock, collectively creating a better bite into that 'pad of rust'. At any rate its coming out of there. I will keep you all posted and if I need to go the reamer route, I will certainly provide a shout out.

By the way Hank, shipping doesn't sound so bad, $12 is a whole lot better than $150. If you have concerns about me taking care of the reamer, no worries there should you have, I treat my tools and especially other people's stuff like a newborn child. I really do, I've always been called 'curious'.....oh well!

 

[ehpoole]

I can not speak for lathes specifically, but I can certainly speak for drill presses, both of which use MT#2 tapers.

You should always need a mallet (and in the case of drill presses at least, occasionally even a drift punch) to remove an MT#2 from its socket. A loose fitting taper is useless for getting any real work done and a sign of a damaged, poorly made, or improperly maintained taper. Properly fitted and installed the taper should resist efforts to pull it back out (straight out) unless lateral force (such as a sideways tap from a mallet) is applied to loosen it, at which point it will fully release instantly (it is an all or nothing fit).

As for the minor surface rust, if it is not interfering with the proper fit of the taper then just apply some oil, rub it in good, then use a dry rag or towel to buff off as much of the oil as possible. The idea being to treat the rust to an oil treatment and prevent future rust, not to actually oil the taper (which is why you should buff it dry afterwards) as a taper should never be oiled since they depend upon a friction fit. If you overdo the oiling and the taper no longer holds tight as a result, then any solvent (such as mineral spirits, paint thinner, etc.) will suffice to strip the oil, but a good buffing with a dry cloth should suffice.

 

[Truefire]

Yeah thanks Ethan.

 

[aplpickr]

I would not try the scotchbrite under power. Do it by hand first. You do not want concentric scratches in there!

 

[Truefire]

I would not try the scotchbrite under power. Do it by hand first. You do not want concentric scratches in there!

Yeah

 

[Charles Lent]

How about using one of these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcbntC8JJiU

Charley