Installing Cathedral Crown Molding Help

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charlessenf

New User
Charles
I watched Gary Katz videos*** on Installing Crown Molding on a flat ceiling and was seriously impressed by his approach to teaching the concepts and important points.

After spending several hours 'on the net' without finding anything (of a similar quality) on installing Crown on a Cathedral Ceiling and finding Katz himself wanting on the topic, I thought to turn to NCWW to ask if anyone could heartily recommend a superb instructive resource to (step by step) teach one how best to install outside corner crown where the ceiling is sloping up/down (mine rises some 3 feet over 12 feet).

I have seen a video where they say to just install it as if the ceiling were flat - and that may work for long runs on painted crown - but I have a dozen twists and turns to deal with and relatively short runs of crown.

KATZ himself gives up on outside cathedral corners and uses plinth blocks.

That approach will not do for me!

True Angel (www.compoundmiter.com) offers a book for $20 and a series of plastic "angle finders" the numbers of which are too small for my eyes! If someone has their book, I'd appreciate a look at it to see if it 'speaks to me' as did Katz' videos on flat ceiling crown.

I bought a couple of trim carpentry books and found no help there - Need to take them back to Klingspor! Or donate to a library.

Any experienced trim carpenters out there?

*** Installing Crown Molding: Measuring Crown Molding, THISisCarpentry
3 years ago http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2015/04/03/installing-crown-molding/
First of a series of four videos on the subject.
 
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Skymaster

Jack
Senior User
DQ
Charles, been trimming for 40 yrs, never did cathedral crown,nor met anyone who would attempt it. you are working on dissimilar angles, compound angles, and murphy. IF i wanted to I think i would try to run the cathedral square cut to the wall, then try to cope the wall to it. it will be trial and error until you hit upon something that works. Any help i can be just ask.
Jack
 

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
DQ
Have you seen this? Scroll down to cathedral.

https://extremehowto.com/diy-crown-molding-trim/
That is about the most comprehensive summary of crown work I've seen lately. The one part that can help is to cut the angles but cope to get the tight fit if you're having troubles. Most of the hurry up and get it done and add mud to taste types, ignore coping as dated and too slow.

If you're doing it for yourself, you will look up at your work and see what most others will not bother to look at carefully. Its up to you--- no pun here.
 

Phil S

Phil Soper
Corporate Member
DQ
An angle finder, extra crown and lots of patience. It can be done. Since the piece running up the sloped ceiling will have a longer cut, to match it works well to adjust its spring angle from the normal 38 to more like 45, of course that depends on the slope angle. A slight back bevel on the top of the slope crown will be required to allow it to fit tight to the ceiling. A block plane works well
 

charlessenf

New User
Charles
"Have you seen this? "

Well, yes and no. If you follow it all the way to the end, ou will see that the article is by the folks from www.compoundmiter.com. They offer a book for $19 and this article may be comprised of excerpts from that book. They also sell the tables like.similar to those shown in the article and the plastic angle finders referenced in my OP.

In a perfect world, Wayne and Katz would get together and teach Drake's stuff like Katz teaches his!

Having said all that, I d/l the entire thing with the idea of reading it three times (a charm, I'm told) to see if I can wrap my feeble brain about it.

It all goes to support the contention that 'A good teacher is hard to find and harder to lose."

For more information, contact Wayne Drake, author of the book,Crown Molding & Trim: Install it Like a PRO!, at Wayne@CompoundMiter.com or call 1-866-544-2016.
 

charlessenf

New User
Charles
"adjust its spring angle from the normal 38 to more like 45"

I suspect I'm an eidetic learner. I think that means one that requires visuals if not visuals and hands on instruction. I understand that the Spring Angles are designed to fit a ninety-degree ceiling to wall joint where the change in Spring Angle is related to the height at which the crown molding is installed.

With a 45 degree spring angle, the molding is basically installed equidistant from the corner to the edge on the ceiling and to the edge on the wall. However, if the ceiling angle with respect to the wall section is greater than ninety degrees. that 45 degree spring angle no longer works as intended. I would think it 'opens up' the joint between the wall and the crown and that between the ceiling and the crown unless one planes the edges so as to match the obtuse angle of the Cathedral ceiling.

I see where the three piece corner helps the transition around and up - but realize it leaves the issue of the spring angle to chance.

The reason I mentioned Katz's videos, is that he demonstrates each step in the process as well as the results. There are videos 'out there' that install the molding on the crown as if installing on a 'normal' ceiling where all the runs are relatively long. Since they do not show any up close detail, one assumes they are counting on 'flex' in the crown to disguise the inherent errors in treating a slope like a square deal! ;)
 

Skymaster

Jack
Senior User
DQ
Hence, in order to simplify, dreaded corner blocks, makes all joints square butts in corners :D
 

Roy G

Roy
Senior User
DQ
Charles, can you cut short pieces of crown maybe a foot long and fit them at the corner? Then you could run your crown into them. Wouldn't be a plinth block and shouldn't be really obvious from the floor.

Roy G
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Corporate Member
DQ
Been doing carpentry 50 years but never saw the 3 piece corner. I believe it's the only way out of a plinth block for crowns on a cathedral. Because of the up slope, the rake angle moulding will also 'grow' in its profile with respect to its mating surface on the horizontal member. Bedding one to the other will not look right or fit proper.
 

Barry W

Co-Director of Outreach
Barry
Corporate Member
DQ
​We have several rooms with cathedral ceilings and when we were remodeling a few years ago I went crazy trying to find online suggestions for the correct way to install crown molding (painted) in those room. The method I like best is to simply continue the room crown molding continuously around the room without trying to follow the actual cathedral ceiling.

Examples:

From "The Joy of Moldings #1

From "The Joy of Moldings #2"

From "The Joy of Moldings #3"

You may find more references to this subject in Archives. Good Luck!

By the way, we used coping in one of our sun rooms with small single profile crown molding and it works. The gentleman helping me had worked in finish carpentry (in the old days had made dental molding by hand) for over fifty years and took his time to get the perfect fit.
 
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charlessenf

New User
Charles
Unfortunately, the design of this kitchen is such that the solution proposed would be impossible. The room is 12 x 24 or so with cabinets along three walls on the one end (matching soffits to the ceiling above) and the ceiling height. The ceiling height is 96" along the 24' Outside wall and about 10'6" along the opposite wall.

One issue with that lower crown approach is the dust collection shelf created - lord only knows what it would fill with in a kitchen!

Not that I don't appreciate the suggestion.

I may decide to 'wing it' using what little I know about coping and fudging. After all, it's gonna be way up high. ;)
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Corporate Member
DQ
Go ahead, Charles. I can't see it from my house anyways, and at the end of the day, it's your name on the mailbox. :icon_thum
 

JimD

Jim
Senior User
DQ
I really like Ron Paulk's youtube videos on cutting and installing crown moulding. I had done it several times before looking at his videos but I still learned a lot. I made his jigs up for two types of crown in my house and used them to put crown back where I had it before after remodeling and to add it to the MBR. He now has a video on cathedral ceilings. I have not tried that but I have looked at the video. What I remember is he said to install it normally but to open up the angles on the back of the crown if you need to.
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Corporate Member
DQ
The library would be a good place to start, and you don't have to pay for them there, but one can often find DIY books at Ollie's that are more relevant. The point is, keep your eyes open. You never know where you'll find the help you need.
 
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charlessenf

New User
Charles
"I really like Ron Paulk's youtube videos on cutting and installing crown moulding. "

Thanks for the link. I saved links to each of his videos - though have yet to sit through all of them.

I've watched several of them tonight in light of your comment. I'm not sure of the DATES of his videos so I can't be sure if he is following KATZ or vis a versa. IMHO Paulk talks more than necessary and wanders off point. If you get a chance to watch KATZ where he shows you the different types of crown cuts/corners, then takes you through making a cut list for those examples, setting up to cut, cutting and, tehn installing the crown pieces cut you are likely to find a much more compact agenda and presentation with concrete examples that are easy to follow.

Everyone has a different learning style, Kaz suits this old man better than Paulk - though I do like Paulk's miter stand!

Paulk cuts to a flat ceiling without adjusting for the Cathedral change in slope. A Spring Angle is fitted to a ninety degree intersection of ceiling and wall. Where the ceiling slopes up or down (Remember, I've a SHED Ceiling) relative to the wall section it intersects, the angle is either obtuse (>90) or acute (<90) so the (Spring Angle) cuts on the back of the Crown will be off in either case. Neither Paulk nor Katz seem to have a way of working neatly round an outside corner going up or down with ceiling pitch.

Paulk does attempt to correct for the failure of the (stock) spring angle to lay flush to the wall surface by trimming the Crown on the table saw before installing. Since he does not mention changing his crown stop as well, one must assume he uses the same crown stop even after changing the spring angle with his trimming.

Basically, this (PAULK's do it lie a flat ceiling) approach was what i had reference to when I said I might just wing it.
 

charlessenf

New User
Charles
Duh!

Never thought of it at all!
Good tip, worth an online search.
One can even reserve books online now a days!
Geeze, am I getting used to the Internet?
Next thing you know I'll have a facebook page and post kitten pictures.
 
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