How Wide The Board

[danmart77]

Whew! I was getting worried, thought I missed something important.

but I never use plans anyway, so there’s that.

This thread could grow into a discussion about the use of plans. I don't use plans for all of my projects but I have found they very useful when building a large project for the first time or for new woodworkers to study as they plan on how they will pull it together.

A strong case for plans has to do with proportions. I don't use computer programs like others here as I don't have a means of printing out plans the size of what I am trying to scale out. I don't get a feel for the proportions looking at a small illustration like the one on the opening of the thread.

So what do I do and why do I feel it is necessary?

I use a simple drafting table made up of a truly square piece of MDF and a good square. I build the piece on paper to scale and edit to proportions I can see and get comfortable using.


When I decided to make a couple of these 2 piece cabinets or "Linen Press" units, I wanted to surprise one of the folks with hidden drawers since they were so excited about something else I built with hidden drawers. This was a design change of significant importance.

Look at this lower case and the face frame work around the sides that joins the front and side with a filler strip and lamb's tongues on the top and bottom. This allowed me to do 2 things: I could use the small chunk of crotch walnut to make all of the face pieces and get the hidden drawers in the sides. I was concerned about matching the top and bottom and the only way I was going to do it was to draw the entire piece out on paper.

I think developing a sense of proportion when working on furniture is a critical skill that is overlooked more often than not. To me its what makes one piece dazzling and another awkward.

We can have a fun debate over the ease of using computer programs and the merits of this path(its a good one) but my point is seeing the actual size of the final product. This is how I encourage developing woodworkers to practice. It is a tough sell to young folks who are short on ...

the design carried from the top section to the bottom drawers was done on paper in life size proportion to confirm the fit.

the piece below was a starting point that I felt was "out of proportion" but the customer insisted on having it built as is. It hurt a little during the build but the kids needed new shoes.

I do like plans and I am convinced that they can help develop that vocabulary of details in the back of your head.



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[patlaw]

In high school, I frustrated my math teacher because I turned in my homework in ink. It never occurred to me that a pencil might be better since I rarely made a correction. If I adopted that philosophy in woodworking, I hate to think what the finished plans would look like - pen or ink. SketchUp has turned out to be an absolutely fabulous way of learning how to proportion and make things fit together - all before cutting the first board.

It's takes a Kapex miter saw for me to make an accurate cut. Paul Sellers can do it with a hand saw. Heck, he can probably do it with a pocket knife. One day, I may be able to do the same.

Use whatever tools help achieve the final goal. Once you learn how to ride the bike, you can go faster without the training wheels.

 

[patlaw]

Better off pretending you never heard of Anna White.

Ana White has introduced woodworking to a lot of new and young people. That seems like the kind of thing we would want to encourage.

 

[Jeff]

Better off pretending you never heard of Anna White.

I disagree with that blanket statement! OMG, she uses those ghastly butt joints and pocket holes for most of her stuff. No, she's not a traditional woodworker and doesn't know what a mortise & tenon, dado, or rabbet is but we're traditional woodworkers and can be a bit snooty at times. She addresses a DIY "make it simple and quick" audience; not heirloom stuff and if it falls apart or the kids trash it we can build another one for a few $.

 

[JimD]

I started out using through screws and glue. We used a lot of that stuff for several decades and it survived multiple moves. I can make machine cut dovetails and mortise and tenon joints now but the last cabinet I made used pocket screws. It was painted and the holes in the top and bottom do not show because they are too close to the floor and ceiling. It is painted so the ones in the middle shelf got filled before the finish was applied. I put in a few biscuits which really helped with the pocket screws wanting to slide things around. Nice solid joint, no need for anything fancier. I thought I was going to have to assemble it in the bathroom but after putting together a side, I found I could tilt it up. So it got carried through the house and tilted up in place. The stresses in that move are greater than anything it will see in service, screwed to the wall.

I have never had much patience. I need to see some results fairly quickly to maintain interest. I am not alone. I am all for people starting out with simple joints and concentrating on cutting pieces to size. Traditional joints can come later if they want.

 

[Mike Davis]

if it falls apart or the kids trash it we can build another one for a few $.

The only reason I started refinishing and building furniture is because I got tired of repairing junk that fell apart.

I'm certainly not going to waste my time building junk that I spent twenty years learning to get away from.

 

[Jeff]

The only reason I started refinishing and building furniture is because I got tired of repairing junk that fell apart.

I'm certainly not going to waste my time building junk that I spent twenty years learning to get away from.

Fine, carry on and no discussion needed. You've done some nice quality work as have many of us but Mike (patlaw) is just starting and we can cut him a bit of slack with his choices.

From Jim D.

I am all for people starting out with simple joints and concentrating on cutting pieces to size. Traditional joints can come later if they want.

 

[nn4jw]

Strongly built furniture takes all kinds of forms, including pocket holes. Badly built furniture also take all kind of forms, including mortise and tenon.

I've had to repair so called well built commercial furniture where the mortises and tenons fit loosly and were only as strong as the glue filling the gaps. Cra.. is cra.. no matter what form the joinery takes.

I have a tile topped side table on our patio I built using pocket holes 6 years ago. The joints are all glued with Titebond III as well as the pocket holes. After 6 years on the patio it shows no sign of coming apart.

Likely the same side table built with properly sized and fit mortises and tenons would fare just as well. Beware of blanket statements. Including the previous sentence.

 

[Rick M]

I disagree with that blanket statement! OMG, she uses those ghastly butt joints and pocket holes for most of her stuff. No, she's not a traditional woodworker and doesn't know what a mortise & tenon, dado, or rabbet is but we're traditional woodworkers and can be a bit snooty at times. She addresses a DIY "make it simple and quick" audience; not heirloom stuff and if it falls apart or the kids trash it we can build another one for a few $.

I'm not being snobbish and resent the accusation. It has nothing to with pocket holes or butt joints. Anna White is not a furnituremaker and doesn't understand joinery or wood movement. Time and again I have answered posts on other forums by people who built her plans and in 6 months it's cracking, bowing, cupping, or falling apart; and they ask how to fix it. It's a waste of time and money and teaches wrong lessons. There are a thousand books and thousands of journals with plans conceived by qualified people, furniture that will last and teach you something during the construction.

 

[Rick M]

Ana White has introduced woodworking to a lot of new and young people. That seems like the kind of thing we would want to encourage.

There are hundreds of highly skilled and learned woodworkers alive today that author books and articles, many more who have passed but whose books are still available, thousands more who participate on web forums, so why would I encourage people toward a person with no understanding of joinery or wood movement?

 

[Jeff]

Anna White is not a furnituremaker and doesn't understand joinery or wood movement.

I agree but she appears to have a pretty loyal following of others that are equally uninformed and their furniture from her plans and joinery methods may fall apart but it's strictly utilitarian, albeit for a short time. It works for some folks!

 

[patlaw]

Part of learning how to do good woodworking is by experiencing the effects of bad woodworking. Why is she popular? The power of video? The simplicity of her projects? Ryobi sure likes her.

 

[danmart77]

There are hundreds of highly skilled and learned woodworkers alive today that author books and articles, many more who have passed but whose books are still available, thousands more who participate on web forums, so why would I encourage people toward a person with no understanding of joinery or wood movement?

I watched another person like Ana White do a TV episode where she painted an 18th century French bombe chest with elaborate marquetry work on the top. She painted the chest with white latex paint to "brighten up the dark accents in the room" she was updating.

I was speechless sitting there watching this travesty when along comes her co-host and showers her with the full list of adjectives we hear on most of the DIY shows.

It seems simple to me: people do not invest in furniture to impress others. Here in the 21st century, we have cars and other objects we use to impress others. Makes sense I guess?? More people see my 1999 Taurus wagon than my furniture.

I listen to Ana White like I listen to a man trying to sell me a mattress that will change my life.... and I'm not a snob.



later

 

[danmart77]

Part of learning how to do good woodworking is by experiencing the effects of bad woodworking. Why is she popular? The power of video? The simplicity of her projects? Ryobi sure likes her.

People loved the Monkees. They were a TV success but that didn't make them musicians

 

[Mike Davis]

Then I saw her face, now I’m a believer.

 

[patlaw]

People loved the Monkees. They were a TV success but that didn't make them musicians

Actually, they were musicians, but Micky was not a drummer. The TV show inspired them to become quite competent musicians. But I get your point.

 

[Rick M]

Part of learning how to do good woodworking is by experiencing the effects of bad woodworking.

Best of luck, sincerely. I hope that approach works for you.

 

[Drew]

Anna White’s “woodworking” projects can be completed in a weekend and don’t require thousands of dollars worth of expensive tools. I once worked with a guy who spent $5,000 on machines before he built his first project but I think most people aren’t like that. Clearly, most members here have skills far advanced beyond her methods. That said, I don’t understand why a site which claims to be about educating people in woodworking would have so many negative comments about someone who introduces beginners to building things with wood.

 

[Mike Davis]

Because we have to correct the bad habits, bad design, bad information, bad technique when they try to go further.

If she would just simplify without all the bad she would get a lot of support.

 

[Rick M]

Anna White’s “woodworking” projects can be completed in a weekend and don’t require thousands of dollars worth of expensive tools. I once worked with a guy who spent $5,000 on machines before he built his first project but I think most people aren’t like that. Clearly, most members here have skills far advanced beyond her methods. That said, I don’t understand why a site which claims to be about educating people in woodworking would have so many negative comments about someone who introduces beginners to building things with wood.

We are educating you that Ana White projects are poorly conceived, without regard to wood movement or proper joinery. Woodworking is more than attaching boards together in way that looks pleasing to the layperson. Ana White is misrepresenting what it takes to build furniture, she is introducing people to failure. In my experience, it takes the same amount of effort to do something right as to do it wrong, especially if you have to redo it. And there are more resources on how to do woodworking right but they are not accompanied by a pretty face and a pretty website. People like Ana White and many youtubers make a living by promoting a diy lifestyle but their skillset is cameras, websites, and SEO; not woodworking. Most of the time when they show you "how" to do something, they are doing it for the first time. These people promote the idea that woodworking requires no skill, education, or experience; that there is no wrong way to do things. Furniture evolved over centuries to its present forms, not just design but the construction. There are wrong ways to do things, some ways of building furniture will not work. If you want simple designs that do work, I'm sure we can steer you toward a source. Pop Woodworking has a series called, "I can do that."

To your other point about machines ... that is an excuse. Woodworking is pre-industrial, you don't need a shop full of machines. You can build a lot of basic furniture with just a few tools: a handheld circular saw (or handsaw if you prefer), chisels, and a drill; a router is nice to have. Probably should have a few bar clamps. You tell me what you have, what you want to build, and I'll tell you how to get there or I'll tell you if you need more tools.