Holly tree trunk in Chapel Hill, NC

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TENdriver

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TENdriver
Sarah, I'm glad to see you're trying to put this tree into good hands.

It looks like the tree made it through the summer so far. You may want to investigate a little more before you girdle the tree. I'd be concerned about introducing more organisms that could stain the white wood.
 

scsmith42

New User
Scott Smith
What's the pseudo-science behind cutting holly trees during the dead of winter when the sap is down and then getting them in a kiln pronto in order to reduce the moisture content?

Hey Jeff, it's not pseudo-science but actually well understood in the industry.

Of the domestic species that I am familiar with, holly is the most susceptible to stain from fungal activity after the tree has died. Usually trees die when they are felled, but in some instances they will die while standing, which means that a standing dead, diseased or seriously pruned tree is already developing stain inside the lumber even though it has not yet been felled.

Maple and pine will also both stain quickly. The onset of stain, rapidity of spread through the wood, and extent of staining are directly linked to the temperatures occurring when the tree died (as well as when the log was stored), coupled with the chemical composition of the moisture contained within the tree (ie high sap content).

Stain from fungal activity develops while 1) temperatures in the wood are above 50 or so, 2), while the sap (sugar) content in the wood is high), and 3) when the logs sit for several weeks in conditions 1 and 2 before being milled. Usually the greatest amount of fungal stain takes place when the wood temperature is between 70 - 90 degrees. Once you get above 110F fungal stain does not seem to develop, nor does it seem to develop below 50F.

I've had pine logs felled in January that were still clear the following August. At the same time, I've had pine logs felled in July that were starting to stain 30 days later. Because the moisture content in trees is pretty much the same year round, the influence of sap on decay is considerable because the sap contains sugary and other substances that attract and foster microorganisms that cause decay and stain.

Wood dries very poorly in log form, because most of the moisture leaves the lumber through the face of the boards, not the ends. There are exceptions to this rule for certain porous species such as cedar, but in general terms the heard wood of logs will retain a high moisture content until they are milled. The sapwood will start drying out, but this causes problems due to shrinkage and cracking that develops in the sapwood portion of a log.

In general terms, for the minimal amount of stain in stain prone woods it is best to harvest in the middle of winter, mill within a few days after felling and get into the kiln immediately after milling. The greatest danger of staining in this scenario is during the initial phase of drying in the kiln cycle when the temperatures are lower. A typical kiln temperature for holly starts at 120F in order to quickly raise the chamber temp above the point where fungal stain will take place. Note that you have to go to 150F to kill the fungus, but it will be dormant above 110. What is notable here is that most hardwood species start the kiln drying process at a much lower temp (usually 90F in a DH kiln and 100 - 110 in a conventional kiln), which is right in the range where fungal activity can thrive.

So in short, for minimal fungal stain to develop in holly:

1. The tree needs to be alive and healthy until it is felled, as fungal stain can develop in diseased dying trees.
2. The tree needs to be felled when the daily high temperatures are below 50F, ie in the middle of winter.
3. The logs need to be milled within a few days of felling and while the temperatures are still below 50F, ie also in the middle of winter.
4. The lumber needs to be placed into a kiln immediately with a starting temp above 120F so as to prevent the onset or extension of fungal stain development.

Hope this helps.

Clearly there will be a significant investment required to harvest this tree (probably 2 - 4 thousand dollars). For me, the fact that the tree was partially removed earlier in the year elevates the risk level for stain to that which is above my comfort level. Had it been left healthy until being harvested in a January / February timeframe I might have a different opinion

Scott
 
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garymuto

New User
Gary
Scott,

Great info. I have never heard or read about any of this before. Thanks for taking the time and sharing your knowledge.
 

Sarah McI

New User
Sally
Well, regrets being the way they are, I had girdled the tree 2 days ago with a hatchet, so I may have ruined it for a mid winter harvest. It is not a complete girdling of the tree as there is vascular tissue folded into the tree. In my experiences so far, and according to more experienced tree girdlers (for making woodpecker trees), it takes a couple years for a tree to die from girdling, so the tree will most certainly not be dead by winter, will still have its leaves, and I doubt there be enough time for fungus to spread throughout the entire wood of the tree. As part of that equation, however, the tree will probably not dry out any during the next few months. It is October. The peak of winter here is the last week in Dec and first week in January. 3 months is not enough time for its state to change.

It was woodworker and shop teacher in Orange County, Keith Yow that told me the holly should be harvested in late fall or winter.

Doug Ludy Tree Care (and I have always had excellent tree service from him for 30 years), was only going to charge a couple hundred for stump grinding, which he was going to contract out. If Doug is to cut up this trunk, it will not be more than a few hundred, at most. So I figure someone can get a lot of 63" girth Holly for less than $500. Taking down the tree can be done cheaply, like cut into manageable chunks, like 4 ft lengths, and hauled away, even by separate parties, or hauled intact by crane onto a trunk to take to the saw mill.

I suppose that if the object is to dry out the wood asap, wherever the wood was to go, it would best be immediately cut it into fat boards for kiln drying.

I have wondered if one could dry out wood, short of getting it done in commercial kiln, take boards, put them into a very large pvc pipe with heat and air constantly blowing through, would this accomplish the same thing? Has anyone ever done this?

I know my Dad, if he wanted to bend wood, would put wood into a PVC pipe and pipe steam through the pipe in this way. He did this in conjunction with his maple syruping, which generates lots of stream.

Could someone take this idea and use warm dry air?

Getting back to the tree, I very much doubt my girdling the tree did significant damage.

We are going to take down this tree, and if we pay for it, and for the stump grinding, Doug will haul the wood away in more manageable 2-3' chunks to do what he wishes with it. At that point, it will most definitely be a shame as no-one will make much of anything out of this tree, we will have had to spend money on trashing this wood, and it may get stained more with bar chain oil from the chain saw in the process.

I may call Keith back to give him a chance to cut up a few pieces for his woodworking program. I am pretty sure they don't care what color the wood is.

If this post, and discussion, doesn't attract interested parties after a few weeks, to arrange with us a good time to harvest the tree, we are going to go ahead and trash the tree.

I have contacted someone else who taught wood engineering, maybe he can answer our wood color question.

Sarah McIntee
 
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