Electrolysis with a computer power supply (ATX)

[CatButler]

This weekend I tried electrolysis using an ATX computer power supply. I don't have a battery charger, but computer power supplies can put out 12V with 15+amps, and 5V with even more, so I thought that would even be a better substitute.

I was digging around the junk pile at work looking for a decent supply. A hardware engineer turned me on to some that they were using to power some motherboards before their real power supplies came in. They had to hack them to get them turn because the motherboards weren't standard Intel motherboard. Two things were required by this power supply for it to turn on, a lead to the mother board had to be grounded and a load had to be on the 5V line. They had shorted the lead and put a nice big resister on the 5V line Current output was 20 Amps 5V, 16 amps 12V, Perfect

Sorry I don't have pics. That's just the way I am. If you are interested I can point you to the ATX spec.

Anyhow, talking to the electrical engineers, they were most concerned about the current draw being too big and suggested getting a 1/4 ohm resistance in the circuit to limit the current. They actually said the 5V may be better since it could drive more amps. I didn't have those things sitting around and radio shack was out of the way, I just decided to try it.

I clipped all the power leads on the connectors and put them together 5v =Red, 12V Yellow, 3.3 Orange, Ground Black.

Made my bucket of water and washing soda. Used an old lawn mower blade as the electrode and connected it and the plane to the 12V lead on the power supply (and ground), then plugged the extension cord attached to the power supply. Nothing blew up, but nothing impressive was happening either. I checked the bucket and little bubbles were slowly coming up around the plane. Not impressive.

Worried about current, I had spaced the annode and electrode as far apart as possible. I didn't have a multimeter, so I couldn't measure anything. Getting brave, I turned it off and put them closer together. Better. Closer even better. Finally about an inch part was OK. So it took about a day to do the #7, switching it around to get it all in the 5 gallon bucket.

I have nothing to compare this too, so I'm not sure how it worked compared to a charger. I will probably borrow a multimeter from work to see what the load/current is. Also, my jumper cables were pretty long. I may get some shorter alligators for it.

Let me know if you are interested in trying and I can give you more tips.

I'll post before and after picks of the plane when I a chance.

 

[Splint Eastwood]

Bryan,

Sounds like your well on your way to restoring your #7

Can't wait to see pics!

M

 

[ptt49er]

That's a sweet idea! Now I have a reason to hold onto that old power supply!

 

[decibel]

So this once again proves that being a packrat can be useful. I have at least 7 of those laying around here.

 

[lottathought]

As it so happens, I also set up a tank this weekend. Got 4 planes at an auction that I am restoring.
Just to let you know....if you do not have a battery charger or a computer power supply, you can also use an old charger for a cell phone you are no longer using.

All you need to do is cut the tip off the charger and strip the wires down a couple of inches.
I sprung for the 60 cents for the clips from Harbor Freight but you could just tape them to the copper wires to connect to the item and rebar inside the tank.
Usually the + is the side with the white stripes.

That is what I did and it is working great.

 

[CatButler]

Here is the spec for the ATX power supply connector, about 1/3 down the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX

The Green while should be clipped and connected to a black wire and e-taped or shrink wrapped. Check the specs for your power supply. Mine had to have a load on 5V. A really big resistor should work.

 

[ptt49er]

An extra case fan will provide enough load for the power supply to turn on as well.

 

[sapwood]

Cool, Bryan! Merging computers and rusty tools :icon_thum
If you're seeing bubbles, it's working. You may want to reduce your expectations as to how fast the process works. 4-24 hours is not unreasonable depending on setup and size. However, I can suggest you add more lawn mower blades (electrodes) to increase productivity. Just connect the blades in series and encircle the tool. Note also that the solution will turn brown. However, don't toss it. It can be used again and again.

HTH,
Roger

 

[Matt Schnurbusch]

That is a great idea. There was a time that I had at least five power supplies lying around. I got sick of moving them out of the way, so I pitched 'em years ago.

 

[CatButler]

An extra case fan will provide enough load for the power supply to turn on as well.

That's a great idea because you could just plug that into a connector, no soldering

 

[SubGuy]

I've actually been looking into this as a mileage increase/power increase on my truck. In my research I have found (with some experimentation and internet searching) some things that can help increase efficiency: Stainless Steel Plates in a + - + - + - type configuration. Optimal spacing was 1/4 inch. Voltage depended on source. Either High Current (5amp or greater) DC 24v or less, or med current AC with a high frequency (1.5Khz worked good) at any voltage above 50. Use Baking soda and Distilled water will greatly increase reactivity.
Look up Hydrogen Generator or Brown Gas Generator on Google.
But be extremely careful and do alot of research before you try these things.

 

[CatButler]

Cool, Bryan! Merging computers and rusty tools :icon_thum
If you're seeing bubbles, it's working. You may want to reduce your expectations as to how fast the process works. 4-24 hours is not unreasonable depending on setup and size. However, I can suggest you add more lawn mower blades (electrodes) to increase productivity. Just connect the blades in series and encircle the tool. Note also that the solution will turn brown. However, don't toss it. It can be used again and again.

HTH,
Roger

Thanks Roger,

If I'm visualizing this correctly, that should create more parallel paths to ground and increase my current draw, right?

I ordered a cheap ampmeter off of ebay that I'm going to wire in to see how many electrons I'm killing.

 

[CatButler]

I've actually been looking into this as a mileage increase/power increase on my truck. In my research I have found (with some experimentation and internet searching) some things that can help increase efficiency: Stainless Steel Plates in a + - + - + - type configuration. Optimal spacing was 1/4 inch. Voltage depended on source. Either High Current (5amp or greater) DC 24v or less, or med current AC with a high frequency (1.5Khz worked good) at any voltage above 50. Use Baking soda and Distilled water will greatly increase reactivity.
Look up Hydrogen Generator or Brown Gas Generator on Google.
But be extremely careful and do alot of research before you try these things.

Just a note to anyone, Zack here is talking about hydrogen production, not rust removal. I think using AC would reverse the rust removal process.

 

[Splint Eastwood]

Just a note to anyone, Zack here is talking about hydrogen production, not rust removal. I think using AC would reverse the rust removal process.

And who said rust removal is not rocket science? :rotflm:


Thanks for sharing, I think!

M

 

[CatButler]

Just an update, I wired in an amp meter into the circuit (sorry, still no pics). I dunked a rusty Wards Master 78 fillester/rabbit this time. I'm not dunking my #7 again until I am ready to paint it. The current draw was between .5 amp and 1 amp @ 12VDC depending on how close the anode and electrode are. The power supply puts out a max of 16 amps @ 12 Volts. I think the current draw could be increased by adding more electrodes, so that will be the next experiment.

 

[Mark Gottesman]

I want to try this on a couple of planes.

My electrical experience ends at hooking up a ceiling fan. so I would appreciate (GREATLY) any and all handholding here.

I have an old 200W ATX power supply that came out of a working computer. It has an integrally powered fan.

View image in gallery

View image in gallery

I have cut and bundled all the wires (red, orange, yellow and black) and left the others in their connector.

View image in gallery​

I have wrapped the green wire in with the black.

QUESTIONS: (Detailed answers are welcome:icon_thum)

Do I need to do anything about the small 2 wire plug that went to the Motherboard?

There is mention above about adding a resistor to the 5V line.
Do I need to do this and if so, HOW?

So, I plan to just tape off all bundles except the Yellow (12v) and Black (ground). I will run jumpers from the bundles to the item being cleaned and the rebar (or may use some old saw plates.

At this point, once the solution is mixed and the various metal bits are positioned, I should just be able to plug in the power supply and watch it bubble merrily away? Right????

Can I use soft steel tie wire for jumpers and connectors?

One last question. I have read that if you heat Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) for an hour at 300F - 350F it will become Washing soda (Sodium carbonate).
Does any know if this actually works?

I really want to do this , but I don't want to fry anything. Especially myself or the house.
I would love to be able to repurpose this power supply if at all possible.

Thanks
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[CatButler]

Funny, I was just running this today.

Looks good so far, although 6 amps may be a bit light for something big, I was doing a #78 with 6 anodes and only drawing 3.5 amps, so you will probably be OK. You may want to look up you power supply to see how tolerant it is to overdraw. Definitely take care not to short your plane to an anode

QUESTIONS: (Detailed answers are welcome:icon_thum)

Do I need to do anything about the small 2 wire plug that went to the Motherboard?
​

Probably not needed, but I think that may be 5V, so it could be used to drop a load across 5V

There is mention above about adding a resistor to the 5V line.
Do I need to do this and if so, HOW?

Not sure, it depends on your power supply. Someone suggested that a fan was good enough. Did you save a fan connector that you could hook a case fan up to? Otherwise a big old resistor to limit current across 5v would be fine. Just pick a red wire/ground pair. Remember Ohm's law, you want current well below the current output of the power supply. Also P = V^2/R, so you want to calculate the power draw and make sure the resistor can handle the power. Luckily someone had already done this for me.

So, I plan to just tape off all bundles except the Yellow (12v) and Black (ground). I will run jumpers from the bundles to the item being cleaned and the rebar (or may use some old saw plates.

At this point, once the solution is mixed and the various metal bits are positioned, I should just be able to plug in the power supply and watch it bubble merrily away? Right????

That's what I did?

Can I use soft steel tie wire for jumpers and connectors?

Note sure. If I read correctly, its 16 gauge which should be enough for the current you are going to draw. I don't think this is the most conductive, but it should be good enough. Is it insulated?

One last question. I have read that if you heat Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) for an hour at 300F - 350F it will become Washing soda (Sodium carbonate).
Does any know if this actually works?

No clue. I was able to find washing soda at the grocery store. It helps with hard water I think, so it is carried quite a few places.

I really want to do this , but I don't want to fry anything. Especially myself or the house.
I would love to be able to repurpose this power supply if at all possible.

I don't think you will fry yourself or the house, just keep an eye on things, so they don't short. I actually started pretty cautious, but now I worry myself a bit that I'm not being cautious enough. I volt meter is pretty useful if you have one. One thing to try is to plug it in not connected to anything (plane, anode). If the power supply fan turns on, things should be ready to go (I think). If you can check voltage and get it, it should be ready.


Good luck.
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[Dusty Sawyer]

And my wife calls me an idiot for keeping such things........

 

[Gotcha6]

The AT/ATX power supplies I've dealt with all have an internal fuse. You won't get to short the wires together but once. :eusa_doh:
Instead of twisting all the wires together, you could simply get a hard drive connector cable jumper off an old add on fan & use it to make a connector with alligator clips for the anode & workpiece. IIRC, the red/black pair are +12v, -12v respectively.

 

[Mark Gottesman]

an Update:
First off, thanks for the info and help. I appreciate the handholding.

Well, I have things running and have not blown up, burned down or zapped anyone or thing.

Ended up getting a 10W 10 Ohm resistor and adding it to the system. Just soldered it to a red an black pair. Coverd up joints with heat shrink.

There is an intergral fan on my unit, so I know that the unit is turned on. I hooked it up to a power switch that has an on/off switch.

Used soft tie wire (16 g) and some clips to hook things up.

I did cook my sodium Bicarb in the oven at 350F for 1 hour. Might do the next batch slightly higher 375F.

It seems to work since the piece being derusted is bubbling away. I used a 10" carbon steel saw blade laying on the bottom of the tank for the other piece of metal. That will probably get changed when I get some lawnmower blades.

First off into the tank is a motor base for a Drill press I am rebuilding, then I have a Bailey #8 and a Fulton # 7 to get cleaned and tuned up..

What a hoot. :icon_cheers