Candle Sconce Problems...Flush Trim Tearout

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cpowell

Chuck
Senior User
After making three bedrooms of heirloom furniture with straight lines I have entered the world of curves. And found an amazing knack for demonstrating my incompetence at every turn! :lol:

Well, I have screwed up 2 of the 4 sides for my candle sconces. http://www.traviswood.com/acc/csme.html

I made a pattern, traced onto the cherry stock, rough cut with the bandsaw, sanded closer with my belt/disc sander then tried to trim with a flush trim bit.

Screwed the first one up because of technique, approaching the grain at the top from a bad angle! :eusa_doh:

Cut the second one okay and left the top as-is with the thought of dressing in up on the disc sander. Started the third and got a bad tearout at the bottom of the inside curve. I have noticed a propensity for the flush trim bit to tearout when the grain is perpendicular or more to the blade. One would think an intelligent person would have learned something from that.

So the question is, how else to trim to the line without tearout. Is an oscillating spindle sander my only option here? I tried using the end roll on my belt/disc sander but is is pretty jumpy. It is NOT a good quality sander. It is a value-for-money sander. I am not much of a neanderthal woodworker and would prefer a Norm (power tool) approach.

I mentioned spindle sander to LOML and she immediately started searching Lowes and HD websites. Came up with a few at HD. Do I seize the moment?

Man, I love this hobby!

Pics below.

Chuck
 

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skeeter

New User
Charles
Hey Chuck;

It's never incompetence, it's design challenges. Oscillating spindle sander may not be your only option, but it's a good option. Hey, if LOYL agrees that fast, you definitely seize the moment!
 

cpowell

Chuck
Senior User
I cheaped out and bought a new medium grit belt for the belt/disc sander and used it to trim to the line. Much harder to keep everything square but it looks okay.

OK, let's face it, I ran to Lowes/HD and they didn't have anything. Now, if I'd lived in Raleigh I would have ran to Woodcraft and the results would ahve been different.

I think I'll wait and see how much of this curved stuff I'm going to be doing. If the CFO keeps commissioning such work I'll put in a capital request for OSS funds!

Chuck
 

BobN

New User
Bob
Chuck,

Think you ought to try and find out why your flush trim bit doesn't work, because that is the prefer way to do this. Is the bit old and dull where it is tearing the wood instead of cutting it? What diameter is it? If it is one of these little 1/4" bits that you trim cabinet tops with, if it is that could be your problem. You want a minimum of 1/2" diameter when following a pattern, the one that I use the most is 1 1/2" diameter.

I have an oscillating spindle sander, but rarely use it as I prefer making a pattern and using a flush trim bit. Have never had the problems that you are having. I have several flush trim bits that I use depending on the pattern and how tight the curves are, but my favorite is the Freud 50-130. It's a little expensive at $60. But it sure leaves a pretty edge after you use it.

Bob
 

cpowell

Chuck
Senior User
BobN said:
Chuck,

Think you ought to try and find out why your flush trim bit doesn't work, because that is the prefer way to do this. Is the bit old and dull where it is tearing the wood instead of cutting it? What diameter is it? If it is one of these little 1/4" bits that you trim cabinet tops with, if it is that could be your problem. You want a minimum of 1/2" diameter when following a pattern, the one that I use the most is 1 1/2" diameter.

I have an oscillating spindle sander, but rarely use it as I prefer making a pattern and using a flush trim bit. Have never had the problems that you are having. I have several flush trim bits that I use depending on the pattern and how tight the curves are, but my favorite is the Freud 50-130. It's a little expensive at $60. But it sure leaves a pretty edge after you use it.

Bob

Thanks, Bob, that's the kind of information I needed. The bit is 1/2 shank, the cutting edge is about 1 inch long but not very wide. The bit is 2 weeks old. Picked it up at HD (Porter Cable bit) when I needed to trim out the corbels for my lamp. I have tried to buy higher quality bits over the past year but if I need something NOW I run to the Borg. I thought the size may be a contributor but just hadn't had any experience. That's why this forum is so cool.

Thanks.

Chuck
 

Travis Porter

Travis
Corporate Member
I have had that issue many, many times. I have bought about 6 different flush trim bits thinking it was the bit. I finally bought a spiral bit and it does wonderfully, but it is expensive. I have since read that and learned that you don't want to take very much off with the regular flush trim bits. A 1/16" is a lot IMO. You also have to try to make it cut with the grain as much as possible flipping the board over in some instances so that you can go with the grain. I definitely recommend the spiral carbide bit though. My .02.
 

Joe Scharle

New User
Joe
You may not have enough mass there to counter run-out (chatter). I've had better luck sandwiching thin pieces with a sacrificial piece on one side and the pattern on the other with the work in the middle. As already noted, spiral bits are great but I haven't figured how to hone them. When at all possible, I much prefer to pad saw pieces like you're working with because if I mess up on the curve, they're all messed up alike!
Good luck,
Joe
 

cpowell

Chuck
Senior User
Travis Porter said:
I have had that issue many, many times. I have bought about 6 different flush trim bits thinking it was the bit. I finally bought a spiral bit and it does wonderfully, but it is expensive. I have since read that and learned that you don't want to take very much off with the regular flush trim bits. A 1/16" is a lot IMO. You also have to try to make it cut with the grain as much as possible flipping the board over in some instances so that you can go with the grain. I definitely recommend the spiral carbide bit though. My .02.

Do you recommend spiral up or spiral down bit for pattern work?
 

sapwood

New User
Roger
Though lacking much experience, I recently did a little research on down vs up cut spiral router bits. The downcuts are primarily used for routing out smooth shallow cuts for inlays whereas the upcuts are for deeper/tougher cuts. The upcut pulls the chips up and out of the cut, thus reducing clogging and burning.

Sapwood
 

cpowell

Chuck
Senior User
bladeburner said:
You may not have enough mass there to counter run-out (chatter). I've had better luck sandwiching thin pieces with a sacrificial piece on one side and the pattern on the other with the work in the middle. As already noted, spiral bits are great but I haven't figured how to hone them. When at all possible, I much prefer to pad saw pieces like you're working with because if I mess up on the curve, they're all messed up alike!
Good luck,
Joe

Good idea. I face jointed then edge jointed the stock then resawed to 7/16. I then re-jointed and planed to finish dimension. I could feel a VERY noticeable difference face jointing the thin stuff.

I will admit I could feel the chatter on the router, too. I used the router table and the stock was a little bit jumpy.

I have applied Danish oil to the pieces (taped the glue surface areas) and will glue up this afternoon.

It's very interesting to work with small pieces of stock. I have a new admiration for the jewelry box makers. There's all sorts of ways to screw up and safety planning is paramount.

Chuck
 

4yanks

New User
Willie
I would recommend a spoke shave and/or rasps and files for the project then finish with a little hand sanding. It's small enough that it is probably faster and easier to do by hand.
 

DavidF

New User
David
Even with a pattern I often take a small pass first even though it might be a bit ragged you can't go too far; then take a final really shallow pass to the template. I agree, a 1/16th is a large cut on this type of work and cherry is a Bas$%%^d for chip out
 

Travis Porter

Travis
Corporate Member
That one I can't answer. I think in a table you use up spiral, but I don't know. I can say that I have a solid carbide spiral bit about 3" long with double ball bearings on the top. It gives a cleaner cut than the straight ones even on end grain and cutting against the grain. Down side was this bit was $100.
 

Alan in Little Washington

Alan Schaffter
Corporate Member
Judging by your pics there are a few things going on- the size of the chucks tells me you are taking way too big a bite- the work should be as close in size to the pattern piece as possible before you use the router. If it isn't and you are driving the piece all the way into the bit and the bearing against the pattern, you will get tearout. Try some smaller, climbing cuts. Also, router RPM may be too slow and/or the bit not sharp. Also, what kind of edge geometry does the bit have? The bit cutting edge should be skewed slightly so it cuts as much in shear as possible. If the edge is vertical, you will only get a clean cut on long grain. A larger diam. or a spiral bit will help also.
 

jmauldin

New User
Jim
Well, I'll add my two cents worth. First, yes spiral cut bits are better and I have several. But I don't think that is the problem. The comment about trying to take off too much at a time is closer to the solution. Whenever I am doing a project like yours I always make a pattern out of 1/4" tempered masonite. Then I tack the pattern to the piece, having cut as close to the line as possible with the band saw, then run the piece across the router using a pattern cutting bit, the biggest possible for the curves. Such a procedure guarantees that all pieces will be the same size. I finish up with a light sanding.
Good luck, hope this helps.
Jim in Mayberry
 
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