Bow saw failure

[02blues]

Hi. My name is John. I am a bow saw failure.:eusa_doh: I've said it. Its not helping and I need some help!

I have a larger bow saw (partially) seen in this photo. Sometimes I can drive it other times I cant. :BangHead:
The thinner blade width I would think would be good for curves. Looks like rip teeth.

Thinking about the smaller style 15" or so, from Traditional woodworking. Easier to drive?
Blade recs?
Tips?

View image in gallery​

 

[Gotcha6]

The width of the blade is only one factor in making curves. The set if the teeth is the other. No matter how wide (or thick) a blade is, without set it won't turn as sharply. The pitch will also impact ease of use. In the scroll you have in your photo, you are cutting both cross grain and with the grain, requiring different attributes in the blade's pitch and rake angle.

 

[CarvedTones]

I prefer to pull mine. That doesn't necessarily mean mounting the blade Eastern style, though I often do. But if you reach across the piece with one hand and pull the saw out the back, then on the front with your other hand all you are doing is steering and you have more control. At least that is how it seems to me.

 

[Mark Anderson]

i noticed the same thing, turn your blade around so you are cutting on the pull stroke.

 

[froglips]

Have you sharpened/reshaped the teeth?

Many bow saw blades come with "peg" teeth. Which are shaped like pyramids.

While that is good for use in cutting up firewood/logs, falls flat in woodworking.

From what I've read up on bow saws and sharpening them, ideally a rip filed tooth with a hint of fleam makes a bow saw work much better. That hint of fleam helps with cross cuts.

The hint happens if you hand file the blade. If you have it machine filed, then its too precise and you won't have the fleam.

Set will have some effect as will blade height. But without the proper tooth geometry, you may find it still puts up a fight.

I'm still unclear, but I think you might be talking about what some call a 'turning saw'. The terminology eludes me. I tend to think of bow saws as large saws for ripping and cross cutting boards, on par with long saws like the Disston D8. A turning saw for smaller work, such as cutting curves in legs. And a coping saw for fine fret work. Pretty sure a frame saw is more like a rectangle with the blade in the middle, often used for cutting veneers.

No, I don't have a SOD. (Saw Obsessive Disorder).....

Jim

 

[froglips]

Oh, sometimes waxing the blade will help too!

SOD SOD SOD....

Jim

 

[02blues]

Have you sharpened/reshaped the teeth?

Many bow saw blades come with "peg" teeth. Which are shaped like pyramids.

While that is good for use in cutting up firewood/logs, falls flat in woodworking.

From what I've read up on bow saws and sharpening them, ideally a rip filed tooth with a hint of fleam makes a bow saw work much better. That hint of fleam helps with cross cuts.

The hint happens if you hand file the blade. If you have it machine filed, then its too precise and you won't have the fleam.

Set will have some effect as will blade height. But without the proper tooth geometry, you may find it still puts up a fight.

I'm still unclear, but I think you might be talking about what some call a 'turning saw'. The terminology eludes me. I tend to think of bow saws as large saws for ripping and cross cutting boards, on par with long saws like the Disston D8. A turning saw for smaller work, such as cutting curves in legs. And a coping saw for fine fret work. Pretty sure a frame saw is more like a rectangle with the blade in the middle, often used for cutting veneers.

No, I don't have a SOD. (Saw Obsessive Disorder).....

Jim

Jimbo:

Its OK. We should all have a passion and we are all better for your saw passion! Any who I think Mr. Frid said he resharpens all his to rip cut. he has a section on sharpening in the article I posted you might enjoy reading unless you already memorized it...?:gar-La; PS he was not a back saw or japanese style saw lover :swoon: The application I am struggling with is tea table legs. Short and curved like me. Guess I need a turning saw.... technically these are all frame saws vs panel saws. I assume the turning saw blade is thinner and the "bow shorter in length???:icon_scra Thanks for the help guys.

View image in gallery​

 

[CarvedTones]

Another reply to clarify about my pulling comment...

I do sometimes turn the blade around (or the whole saw if it is symmetric and doesn't have a "best" end) but remember you have to "steer" where the cutting teeth enter, not where they exit. EDIT - there is some "steering" on exit also, but that is mostly just keeping your strokes straight.

Also, when I do something like you show by hand, I would more likely use a coping saw. That's largely because I don't really have the hang of curve cutting by hand and the cut will end up with a lot of facets. With the short stroke of a coping saw they are really small facets that sand/scrape out easier.

 

[froglips]

Whew, Andy, I thought you were "pulling" our leg

Something to help make such cuts is to make lots of relief cuts perpendicular to the curved line.

At the ~3 minute mark Bob Rozaieski shows how he does the relief cuts in a cabriole leg.

[VIDEO]http://blip.tv/play/g7w7gcDVFAI[/VIDEO]

Jim

 

[CarvedTones]

Whew, Andy, I thought you were "pulling" our leg

Yeah, it occured to me that for most folks who own a higher quality bow saw, there isn't a "better end" and turning the blade around would be rather silly. But if one of your handles is chipped and the frame racks badly pulled in one direction but is solid in the other, well...

I am sure it has great historic value and you probably want to trade for it (and that Indian plane you have been kicking yourself for turning down). :rolf: If I had made it to the tool swap at Rob's (how did that go, anyway?) I was going to put the plane on the table with a dollar in it and a sign that said you must take the plane also...

 

[Mike Davis]

I don't understand why anyone would buy a bow saw or a turning saw or any wood framed saw, unless it is one of some historical value and you are going to mount it in a case on the wall.

Saws are not difficult to make and a band saw blade can be cut to any length for use in the frame.

As to the original post, I think your blade is too wide for the curve you are cutting there. Set of the teeth also has some effect and technique will help a bit. More reciprocating action and less pressure will allow the kerf to be cut wider which will give the blade more room to curve. Don't rush, give the saw time to cut.

 

[02blues]

Thanks everyone. A couple hours on the saw has taught me the basics.I appreciate your help.

 

[froglips]

Sure, its 5:23am and I'm thinking about handsaws. Yes, I have a problem.....

But, I had a mini-idea.

I learned from the great one, Adam Cherubini, that 18th century saws were made to be used by cabinet makers and joiners. One of the differences is the handles were hung lower and closer to the tooth line. More power and control is offered.

I can attest that ripping with one of his saws was night and day faster than any of the Disston type, which I have come to believe are more for carpentry.

Then, blam-o. Thats why a bow saw is so effective. You hold it just near the tooth line.

Yes, you need a proper kind of bow saw, which I think we call a frame saw. Not a buck saw or one with crazy raker teeth.

Thats my pre-morning coffee insightful theory of the day!

Jim

 

[CatButler]

Surely everybody has seen this,

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...e=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/bowsawdesign.html

Somewhere in those pages it includes plans for a small bow saw. They sell 12" coping saw blades, pins for the handles with a nice quick change slot, even handles. Heck, they will even sell you a saw, but its a bit pricey. I have a 12" Marples bow saw with only one blade. I had to do some "adaptation" to the saw to make the blades fit that I'm not quite happy with.

 

[02blues]

Surely everybody has seen this,

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...e=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/bowsawdesign.html

Somewhere in those pages it includes plans for a small bow saw. They sell 12" coping saw blades, pins for the handles with a nice quick change slot, even handles. Heck, they will even sell you a saw, but its a bit pricey. I have a 12" Marples bow saw with only one blade. I had to do some "adaptation" to the saw to make the blades fit that I'm not quite happy with.

I did recently read that discussion. Really good article. I ended up ordering a 15" bow saw from Traditional Woodworker http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/product_info.php/cPath/37_126_571/products_id/1650

My large frame saw is just a little difficult to handle for the gentle curves.
I have made a few observations this week. Patience. Let the saw do the work. For me cut on the push. Clamp the work horizontal over the edge of the bench so my blade is vertical. Sharpen the blade. Lastly I tend to turn the blade and handles in the direction that I want to cut then I angle the rear end of the frame saw to drive if further in that direction. Difficult to explain. Hope the smaller saw is a bit easier though. Hope to enjoy a few sunny moments in the shop this am.

Good how to build a bowsaw article here too.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2742

Here is another good article from Fine Woodworking By Tage Frid: includes sharpening info too. A classic.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2006

Cheers. Looks like there is lots of interest in this subject. What a great design requiring very little blade.

 

[CatButler]

I have finally grown comfortable using mine. I can saw to a curved line much better than I can with an electric jig saw. I think I figured out I am naturally inclined to pull saw. For this, I had better results with blade horizontal, letting the saw dust fall away. I've grown attached to my Japanese saws too. The only problem with pull sawing is that there is no such thing as a vertical saw bench.

 

[02blues]

Another thought. Cutting to the line is not critical in this application as much of the wood will be removed anyway. Here is a tea table leg in progress.

View image in gallery​