Black Walnut thread

[wsrhue]

I have been going through lots of kiln dried black walnut lumber this year. I have a preference for air dried, I just find the warm reds and even the creamy sapwood more interesting. Unfortunately air dried walnut is hard to come by regularly especially where I'm located on the coast. So for some projects I have to use kiln dried. I've used three different suppliers for kiln dried and I am having the same issue from all of the suppliers I've tried. I purchase it rough sawn. I can pick out boards at my local supplier where they charge $ 8-10 /bdft for premium grade. I can pick for length, width, and knots. I look for hints of live edge that would tell me there is sapwood present. But I cannot tell looking at a kiln dried walnut board with its ends painted and tell if it is mostly heart wood or sap wood. I have been in the habit of purchasing 20-30% more than I need. I get boards wider thicker and longer than I need and I get a couple extra boards.

This week I went to my local supplier so I could pick out some boards as I needed to replace a couple boards for a project. The manager who I like and trust spoke about the walnut, and he said how he no longer gets walnut for the midwest and what he get from Virginia is 90% heartwood. When I got back to my shop 3 out of 4 of the boards I carefully selected were unusable because one side of the 4/4 board was completely sapwood. (These are interior partitions of a cabinet, seen from both sides.)

I've been using walnut for 20 years and I don't recall this being such a problem, I am burning so much walnut scraps that are unusable. All while walnut prices are at an all time high. Have they changed the grading process? Have any of you noticed the same problem? Is there a way to look at kiln dried rough sawn walnut with the ends painted and know if the board is all sapwood or all heartwood?

 

[mdbuntyn]

I can't answer your main question, but here is an explanation of how walnut grading differs from everything else:

Black Walnut Lumber Grade Allow more Defects and Smaller Sizes

The Black Walnut lumber grade rules for Walnut hardwood is different than other North American hardwoods allowing more defects and smaller sizes.

www.mcilvain.com

Typical hardwood grading:

NHLA Hardwood Lumber Grading Overview & Its Limitations

What does the hardwood lumber grading FAS and Common really mean to you when buying the hardwoods for your next project.

www.mcilvain.com

 

[wsrhue]

I can't answer your main question, but here is an explanation of how walnut grading differs from everything else:

Black Walnut Lumber Grade Allow more Defects and Smaller Sizes

The Black Walnut lumber grade rules for Walnut hardwood is different than other North American hardwoods allowing more defects and smaller sizes.

www.mcilvain.com

Typical hardwood grading:

NHLA Hardwood Lumber Grading Overview & Its Limitations

What does the hardwood lumber grading FAS and Common really mean to you when buying the hardwoods for your next project.

www.mcilvain.com

Thanks for this. It doesn't look like they factor sap wood into the grading system at all.

 

[bob vaughan]

There used to be buying and grading qualifiers
SAD= sapwood a defect
SND=sapwood not a defect

I've got some FAS SND cherry. Maybe there's 30% heartwood on one side. It's just barely good enough for drawer sides and backs. Awful stuff. Won't get burned like that again.

 

[walnutjerry]

I can't answer your main question, but here is an explanation of how walnut grading differs from everything else:

Black Walnut Lumber Grade Allow more Defects and Smaller Sizes

The Black Walnut lumber grade rules for Walnut hardwood is different than other North American hardwoods allowing more defects and smaller sizes.

www.mcilvain.com

Typical hardwood grading:

NHLA Hardwood Lumber Grading Overview & Its Limitations

What does the hardwood lumber grading FAS and Common really mean to you when buying the hardwoods for your next project.

www.mcilvain.com

When I worked for the millwork company part of my job was to receive materials coming in. Check MC on all kiln dried lumber etc. Walnut is in a world of its own when it comes to grading. Matt is on spot with his post.

 

[tiswritten]

Without a live edge to give some indication, it is nearly impossible to distinguish sapwood from heartwood in a well-steamed Walnut board in the rough. The deeper you machine, the lighter the sap gets. If a supplier puts up a high end grade in Walnut, it is typically focused in on defects. Many producers offer a Walnut that is "graded on Oak rules" at a steep premium. A color sort is rare. The steaming process is done right after cutting. Once the lumber is steamed, it is impossible to do an accurate heart/sap sort. Boards with less defects (besides wane) tend to come from the outside of the log, so if you select clearer boards, statistically you will run into more sapwood.

I'm not sure where the OP is from, but I believe Kluttz Lumber in Concord stocks kiln-dried Walnut that is unsteamed. You can easily tell sap from heart in that stock.

 

[Willemjm]

I have been going through lots of kiln dried black walnut lumber this year. I have a preference for air dried, I just find the warm reds and even the creamy sapwood more interesting. Unfortunately air dried walnut is hard to come by regularly especially where I'm located on the coast. So for some projects I have to use kiln dried. I've used three different suppliers for kiln dried and I am having the same issue from all of the suppliers I've tried. I purchase it rough sawn. I can pick out boards at my local supplier where they charge $ 8-10 /bdft for premium grade. I can pick for length, width, and knots. I look for hints of live edge that would tell me there is sapwood present. But I cannot tell looking at a kiln dried walnut board with its ends painted and tell if it is mostly heart wood or sap wood. I have been in the habit of purchasing 20-30% more than I need. I get boards wider thicker and longer than I need and I get a couple extra boards.

This week I went to my local supplier so I could pick out some boards as I needed to replace a couple boards for a project. The manager who I like and trust spoke about the walnut, and he said how he no longer gets walnut for the midwest and what he get from Virginia is 90% heartwood. When I got back to my shop 3 out of 4 of the boards I carefully selected were unusable because one side of the 4/4 board was completely sapwood. (These are interior partitions of a cabinet, seen from both sides.)

I've been using walnut for 20 years and I don't recall this being such a problem, I am burning so much walnut scraps that are unusable. All while walnut prices are at an all time high. Have they changed the grading process? Have any of you noticed the same problem? Is there a way to look at kiln dried rough sawn walnut with the ends painted and know if the board is all sapwood or all heartwood?

I normally purchase from our wholesaler, and the last time he quoted me $11 + for 8/4 which was outrageous. Normally they are almost 1/2 of retail. So I complained and explained that I can get it for $8.50 retail, why was the price so high. His answer was quality Walnut is hard to come by and they only carry good product.

So I ended up going to one of the big retailers here in NC and purchased 8/4 for $8.50 to be used for a few countertops. I ended up with a yield of around 60%, the rest was offcuts which I could not use after cutting all the knots an sapwood out.

 

[bob vaughan]

$8.50 for a 60% yield stock would equate to $11.33 for 80% yield stock. I think 80% is unlikely with walnut. I think 60% is about right for expectations of today's walnut supply.

 

[JimD]

I'm not building with walnut at the moment but the next time I do, I will pay extra to get air dried if I can find it. Even the heartwood of the steamed walnut I have used was an unattractive grey. Stained poplar would probably look better. The post indicating the steaming process was the problem with being able to see the sapwood makes sense to me. I've been using cherry which also has white sapwood and it is not hard to see on rough sawn boards. I minimize the sapwood that shows but I don't eliminate it. A little adds a bit of a rustic character IMHO but can still look pretty good.

 

[Bill J]

I normally purchase from our wholesaler, and the last time he quoted me $11 + for 8/4 which was outrageous. Normally they are almost 1/2 of retail. So I complained and explained that I can get it for $8.50 retail, why was the price so high. His answer was quality Walnut is hard to come by and they only carry good product.

So I ended up going to one of the big retailers here in NC and purchased 8/4 for $8.50 to be used for a few countertops. I ended up with a yield of around 60%, the rest was offcuts which I could not use after cutting all the knots an sapwood out.

I recently bought my first lumber from a wholesaler and was surprised that the walnut was more expensive. That being said, the yield from 8/4 was about 90% so I think it was worth it.

 

[spitzerone]

I recently bought my first lumber from a wholesaler and was surprised that the walnut was more expensive. That being said, the yield from 8/4 was about 90% so I think it was worth it.

Which wholesaler do you use?

 

[Willemjm]

I recently bought my first lumber from a wholesaler and was surprised that the walnut was more expensive. That being said, the yield from 8/4 was about 90% so I think it was worth it.

Yep, they supply the cabinet and furniture industries. Large volume, will lose customers fast if the yield is bad.

 

[Bill J]

Which wholesaler do you use?

I used Hood. I just cleaned up a big batch of 4/4 and the yield there was great too. But the 5/4 appears to have a lot of sap wood and varies a lot board by board.

 

[Willemjm]

I used Hood. I just cleaned up a big batch of 4/4 and the yield there was great too. But the 5/4 appears to have a lot of sap wood and varies a lot board by board.

I use them as well, normally Raleigh, sometimes Hi Point.

 

[waitup]

How much do you have to spend to keep those accounts open if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Willemjm]

No frequency needed.

If I pick up, 100bf minimum, if they deliver order has to be $1,000 plus.

Initially when I opened the account, they needed proof of business.

When I ask Chris if he will help out a buddy, he always tells me I should start a small lumber store, or include it in my order.

 

[wsrhue]

It really doesn't matter whether it's a premium quality walnut log that the lumber is coming from, the sawyer knows there's sapwood. These large sawmills that steam dry their walnut know that you can not tell when buying a board if it's 60% sapwood or 10%. When I've had logs milled for me, we took off most of the sap wood first thing with the jacket board.

 

[wsrhue]

I normally purchase from our wholesaler, and the last time he quoted me $11 + for 8/4 which was outrageous. Normally they are almost 1/2 of retail. So I complained and explained that I can get it for $8.50 retail, why was the price so high. His answer was quality Walnut is hard to come by and they only carry good product.

So I ended up going to one of the big retailers here in NC and purchased 8/4 for $8.50 to be used for a few countertops. I ended up with a yield of around 60%, the rest was offcuts which I could not use after cutting all the knots an sapwood out.

I'll look into

I use them as well, normally Raleigh, sometimes Hi Point.

I'm going to look into Hood, although I've had problems with getting deliveries east of Raleigh. Rugby in Wlimington has 6/4 common for $6.80, but the sapwood it just as bad.

 

[wsrhue]

Without a live edge to give some indication, it is nearly impossible to distinguish sapwood from heartwood in a well-steamed Walnut board in the rough. The deeper you machine, the lighter the sap gets. If a supplier puts up a high end grade in Walnut, it is typically focused in on defects. Many producers offer a Walnut that is "graded on Oak rules" at a steep premium. A color sort is rare. The steaming process is done right after cutting. Once the lumber is steamed, it is impossible to do an accurate heart/sap sort. Boards with less defects (besides wane) tend to come from the outside of the log, so if you select clearer boards, statistically you will run into more sapwood.

I'm not sure where the OP is from, but I believe Kluttz Lumber in Concord stocks kiln-dried Walnut that is unsteamed. You can easily tell sap from heart in that stock.

I'll look into Klutz, Sometimes it's hard to get some places to deliver east of Raleigh .

 

[wbarnes]

Another option to look into is The Hardwood Store. I haven’t bought walnut from them so I can’t speak to their walnut quality, but they do deliver East of Raleigh once or twice of a month for a set fee, regardless of quantity.

I’ve gotten ash, poplar, and BB ply from them delivered before with great results.