Any 2HP cyclone owners out there?

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hockey1

New User
Jesse
I am looking into the cyclone world after doing some work in the garage and found it harder to breath and ultimately got sick from the dust. I want to make an upgrade but I want to do it right. We have many folks with 3HP or greater and they all seem very pleased. My question is do you feel as though it is enough power? My shop is a two car garage with an eight foot ceiling, its also a one man operation that magically when we have inclement weather I can still park two vehicles in it. I understand bigger is better here but the main reason why I am looking at a 2HP unit is due to power consumption. Utilities are high here in the bern. How much abuse can the machine take as far as turning it off and on goes. For me I forsee 10 - 15 cyclings per hour. As always any info is always appreciated.
Thanks
Jesse
 

Bryan S

Bryan
Corporate Member
From what I have gathered on the 2 hp units is that they are downsized versions in order to be portable. The current issue of American Woodworker has a good write up on dust collection, and a review of several of the 2 hp units. I think it is the current issue, I am not at home to verify that. I am no expert here but they seam to just be smaller versions of their larger cousins. I would guess that overall quality would be reletivly the same.

Thery are on my list to look into, as I do not have room for a large cyclone.
 

Tarhead

Mark
Corporate Member
I can't imagine the power consumption difference for a 3HP vs a 2HP motor is very much over a month of intermittent use. Focus on effective dust collection, not saving pennies. If you're putting in a cyclone with long duct runs, you'll need plenty of power and a big fan to hit the flow needed to capture the dust. .
 

scsmith42

New User
Scott Smith
Rather than turning your DC on and off 15 times an hour, it's cheaper to leave it running and only cycle it 4 - 6 times, ESPECIALLY if your utility charges you based upon "demand".
 

merrill77

Master Scrap Maker
Chris
I am looking into the cyclone world after doing some work in the garage and found it harder to breath and ultimately got sick from the dust. I want to make an upgrade but I want to do it right.

If you are doing this for health reasons, you should spend some time on Bill Pentz's site. He has a lot of good information and research there. According to his findings, there is only one cyclone on the market that really does the job. It has a 5HP motor. The cost of electricity used by such a system is trivial, relative to the cost of the system (and likely the value of your health).

Chris
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
I think you will find there are plenty of us around here with 2HP cyclones (mine is an older stationary 2HP JDS Cyclone). Whether you go 3HP is more an issue of how much you are willing to spend and how long you expect your duct runs (and number of turns) to be. For a 2-car garage with a single woodworker using one tool at a time, you will likely find 2HP more than adequate, though I'm sure you would find 3HP even more adequate.

I really (IMHO) recommend taking Bill Pentz's site with a serious grain of salt. By much of his logic there is no point in ventilating your workshop during finishing simply because opening the doors and windows and turning on the fans doesn't eliminate 100% of the fumes. Even though common sense and intuition will tell anyone of average intelligence that a room with 5-10% of the fume exposure is more than an order of magnitude safer than a room containing 100% of the fumes and the extended exposure that goes with it. Even in most commercial and industrial settings it is impractical to achieve his perfection, and unfortunately his attitude tends to be that anything less than 100% perfection is of no value (and more specifically, using any design but his own is of no value in his opinion). Don't get me wrong though, there is much of good value -- and much you can learn -- if you choose to read his writings and publishings, just keep that grain of salt handy.

The reality is that when it comes to dust exposure, just like exposure to any contaminant, there are two vitally important parameters that will determine its health consequences (aside from individual genetic or chronic sensitivity): 1) the intensity or concentration of the contaminant and 2) the duration of exposure to a given level of contaminant. Extremely brief and rare exposure to moderately high levels is generally not seriously dangerous unless you are unusually sensitive, similarly, long duration exposure to extremely low levels is not generally dangerous as it is usually within our body's ability to deal with. So the real goal is to limit your exposure levels to the lowest practical level while also taking into consideration that, as a hobby, you generally have shorter periods of exposure (especially in a one man shop where you may make some intermittent cuts then focus on non contaminating activities for a good while before repeating --plus *most* of us do not spend 40+ work weeks in our shops (though most of us would if we could!).

So invest in good dust collection (for your tablesaw that will mean both above and below table capture, especially if you have sensitivities) and a good ambient air cleaner for your shop and combine them with good practices and common sense. Vacuum your shop floor and flat surfaces after each day's work (or even mid-day if you are noticing any accumulation, especially with tasks that don't lend themselves well to dust collection). Use a good shop vacuum with a good quality filter whenever you are sanding -- hook it up to your power sanders and for hand sanding keep it (or a tack cloth) next to your bench to vacuum off the dust rather than dusting it off with a brush or puff of air. Don't be afraid to don an N95 or N99 respirator/dust mask when generating alot of dust that is not conducive to dust collection, or when dealing with woods what you are especially sensitive to. Continue wearing the mask until you vacuum all the floors and major flat surfaces in your shop (and for 30-60 minutes afterwards provided you have an ambient air cleaner as well). No, you will not have a shop to Bill Pentz's standards, but you will have a shop that is infinitely safer and better for your health than before you invested in good dust collection equipment and implemented good dust management practices.

On the other hand, if you are prepared to spend extraordinary sums of time and money to convert your woodworking shop into a high-grade clean room suitable for Intel to setup shop, then by all means feel free to do so. Just keep in mind than *any* hobby or past time carries with it some risk of injury to oneself, just as with any other activity in life (especially driving) -- so act responsibly but try not to let paranoia take hold to the extent that it interferes with your ability to enjoy life.

Enjoy!
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
I am looking into the cyclone world after doing some work in the garage and found it harder to breath and ultimately got sick from the dust. I want to make an upgrade but I want to do it right. We have many folks with 3HP or greater and they all seem very pleased. My question is do you feel as though it is enough power? My shop is a two car garage with an eight foot ceiling, its also a one man operation that magically when we have inclement weather I can still park two vehicles in it. I understand bigger is better here but the main reason why I am looking at a 2HP unit is due to power consumption. Utilities are high here in the bern. How much abuse can the machine take as far as turning it off and on goes. For me I forsee 10 - 15 cyclings per hour. As always any info is always appreciated.
Thanks
Jesse

The difference in power consumption between a 2hp and 3hp motor is not much and considering the amount of time that you will actually be using the dust collector, it is not worth reducing the capacity to save a couple of cents.

I have an Oneida 3hp cyclone that is supposed to arrive this week. It cost around $1,329.00 shipped to North Carolina. I could have saved a few dollars by buying a lesser machine, but if the goal is to remove as much dust as possible, then why do the job half-way?

Most industrial electric motors have no issues with fairly frequent cycling. Tools like power saws and drills can be turned on and off hundreds of times an hour. The worst that I can see is that you might shorten the life of your starting capacitor.

If this all boils down to your health, then I'd be willing to bet that it is worth a lot more than the few extra pennies that a bigger motor would consume.

Pete
 

Allan Campbell

New User
Allan
Hi Jesse,

I have a 2hp Oneida and I am sure a 2hp cyclone will do the job for you.

I upgraded from a 1 1/2hp Delta 2 bag collector, and, like you worried about whether I needed a bigger unit. The Delta was "ok" but not good. I reasoned that a 1/2 hp increase with the increased resistance of a cyclone would not be much improvement. I had researched and calculated until I was blue in the face when a 2hp used cyclone was advertised here, and with some misgivings, I bought it.

I plumbed it into my shop, which is about 1800 sq ft. with 9' ceilings, using 6" s&d pipe. According to my calculations, using Bill Pentz's formulas, it draws close to 1000 cu ft/min at the furthest drop with 1 gate open. That's about 30-40' feet from the collector.

It will handle 2 machines at once, but is much better with one at a time.

To give you some idea of what that kind of air movement means in the real world, the cabinet of my unisaw, which used to have a pile of dust in every corner, was spotless after the changeover and when I lost control of a toy car while flap sanding at the drill press, the 3"x 5"x 1 1/2" toy was sucked 4' up the 4" drop, into the 6"main and I had to disassemble the piping to get it out.

I suggest to be more comfortable you play with Bill Pentz's formulas to see what cu ft/min you can expect from the units you are considering, but i am sure 2hp will do the job.

In the interest of full disclosure, my 2hp unit has a 3hp motor because the factory was out of 2hps at the time it was built, but the fan turns at the same speed as it would with a 2hp. The airflow is determined by the fan design and speed, not the size of the motor turning the fan. In fact, I was assured by the prior owner that Oneida said the only benefit of my 3hp motor is that it might last a bit longer as it is not working at capacity.
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
In the interest of full disclosure, my 2hp unit has a 3hp motor because the factory was out of 2hps at the time it was built, but the fan turns at the same speed as it would with a 2hp. The airflow is determined by the fan design and speed, not the size of the motor turning the fan. In fact, I was assured by the prior owner that Oneida said the only benefit of my 3hp motor is that it might last a bit longer as it is not working at capacity.

Lest anyone get the idea that a 3HP motor on a dust collector designed for a 2HP motor is an upgrade: Increasing the size of a dust collector motor has zero impact on that dust collector's performance UNLESS you also upgrade to a larger and/or more efficient impeller OR replace the motor with one that spins at greater RPM as well (however, many dust collectors already spin at ~3600RPM, which leaves you with no room to upgrade unless the impeller is belt driven). Otherwise, as stated above, the larger (3HP) motor still spins the same impeller at the exact same RPM and, as such, moves exactly the same volume of air while generating the same static pressure as the original 2HP motor.

I felt the need to mention this because there are many novice woodworkers who, upon rationalizing that upgrading a 2HP tablesaw to a 3HP motor makes for a better tablesaw, will also rationalize that a 3HP motor on a 2HP dust collector will result in a more effective dust collector.
 

hockey1

New User
Jesse
Thanks to all who have offered their opinions especially those who spent the time to write lengthy replies. :eusa_clap

My problem is my 1hp unit I has a 30 micron bag that spews dust all over the place and doesn't pull hard enough to effectively evacuate the machines it is hooked up to. I know pleated filters are available but I feel my money is better off spent elsewhere. When looking at dust collectors is the HP rating the running rating or rating under heavy load? How much force can be added to a fixed fan? What happens when you close all of the blast gates? Any negative effects such as overheating? In the event I soon buy a cyclone. Should I decide to keep it running how important do you feel a seperate closet is needed for noise reduction? Plumbing it from outside the shop is probably not gonna happen.

As a side note many have offered their opinions when I inquired about small dust collection before and I ended up scoring the CT-26 and 125 EQ combo (tool gloat). Could not be happier. :gar-Bi
Proof that it did happen.
IMAG0172.jpg

View image in gallery
IMAG0173.jpg

View image in gallery


Thanks again
 

Tarhead

Mark
Corporate Member
More HP is required for more fan. More fan is required for more flow. You reach a break point with fan size/design, rpm, outlet resistance and inlet resistance where no more air can be moved. Talk to the people at Oneida for advice on this.
A fan on a cyclone "Works" when it moves air. It's not like the situation in a shopvac or a home type vac where it will overheat if it is blocked. No worries about overheating when the blast gates are shut.
A separate closet is nice as most bigger units are noisy and will drown out any music or ability to hear a phone ring, have a normal conversation, etc. Gotta make provisions for make up air back into the shop.

Oh...welcome to the Green side!
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
My problem is my 1hp unit I has a 30 micron bag that spews dust all over the place and doesn't pull hard enough to effectively evacuate the machines it is hooked up to.

Ouch, 30micron is not only dirty, but it also leaves all the very worst dust airborn! You are wise to investigate replacing such with a newer 1-micron dust collector.

When looking at dust collectors is the HP rating the running rating or rating under heavy load?

The horsepower rating is the horsepower rating. Nearly all dust collectors (except, perhaps, some ultra cheap models) use [much quieter] induction motors, not the screaming universal motors that you are accustomed to seeing with all sorts of wild hyped horsepower claims.

How much force can be added to a fixed fan? What happens when you close all of the blast gates?

A dust collector is ulitimately rated by its maximum cubic feet/minute of air volume and the maximum amount of static pressure (suction) that it can develop before the air volume -- and thus air speed -- drops unacceptably at its intake. Efficient transport of the suctioned dust and debris depends on certain minimum air speed -- the exact speed really depends on the mass and cross-section of the debris, but usually you are aiming for something in the vicinity of 4000ft/min (around 40-45MPH) -- necessary to keep the debris airborne along the entire journey back to the dust collector.

If you shut off all the blast gates, then the airspeed and volume will drop to nearly zero (in truth there will be some leakage, so not truly zero). That is acceptable in this case since no debris/dust is entering the system in this state. You will likely find (especially with a 2HP collector) that one or two 4-inch blast gates open is the practical minimum and maximum for practical and efficient dust collection. If you have a 2-1/2" gate open, then you may also need to open a single 4" port further down the line to ensure adequate air speed if the 2-1/2" line/hose opens up to a much larger trunk line.

You will also want to use the largest hose practical to your tool. For instance, if you have a choice, use a 4" hose to connect to your 2-1/2" router table port and adapt that 4" down to 2-1/2" with a conical reducer just before it enters the table. If you have to use 2-1/2" hose then use the shortest length possible. If you can, use a 5" or 6" hose to connect to your 4" tablesaw inlet as well. That said, when starting out you can get buy with short (no more than 20ft max, preferably no more than 10ft) lengths of 4" hose and you will observe a substantial improvement in dust collection and a much cleaner shop -- but not as good as if you had run a 6" line to the tablesaw and reduced it in those final few inches to 4".

Any negative effects such as overheating?

With a few rare exceptions (it comes down to design of the impeller), nearly all dust collectors ship with a single common warning: DO NOT RUN WITH NO HOSE/DUCT CONNECTED. With all of the most common impeller designs the ONLY way to overload your dust collector is to run it wide-open with no hoses or reducers connected. This occurs because the impeller depends upon a certain amount of resistance (either from moving air or from developing a vacuum) to keep it from overspeeding. This resistance assumes that atleast a few feet of hose or ductwork is connected to the inlet.

Other than overloading, the only other common way of overheating the dust collector is to block the motor's internal fan OR place the dust collector in an enclosed space with inadequate cooling airflow (e.g. a poorly designed closet).

Keep in mind that the air that exhausts from the 1-micron pleated filter tends to be quite warm (it can easily be 80F+ in a 68F degree room) which needs to be taken into account when tucked away in a closet. In the case of a closet, you also need to provide a suitable path for makeup/exhaust air to return to the shop. If you are exhausting outdoors than you need to ensure that your shop allows adequate makeup air to flow in from outdoors (especially if you have any gas burning equipment in your shop -- water heater, central heater, etc) so as to not draw in combustion fumes.

In the event I soon buy a cyclone. Should I decide to keep it running how important do you feel a seperate closet is needed for noise reduction?

This really comes down to personal preference and tolerance. My 2HP cyclone has a noise level of 74-78dB, which if you consult OSHA is considered a safe level of exposure for 8+ hours stretches. Nonetheless, it is loud enough that I do shut it off when it is not needed for awhile, or I will wear [foam] earplugs if I will be running it for many hours straight (it is just enough sustained noise to eventually give me a headache, but then I am prone to such).

If you go the route of placing it in a closet, just beware that you will have to provide a return path for the exhaust air so that it can return to the shop with *minimum* resistance. Also beware that this return path, if not carefully designed, will become the prime path for noise return to the shop.

Venting outdoors remedies the noise issue, but then you have to ensure an adequate safe supply of makeup air is provided for (see above). You also wind up venting all your heated and/or A/C conditioned air and risk drawing in excess humidity from outdoors with such a setup.

I hope this answers all your questions. I lost track of this thread for a few days while I was not feeling well or I would have gotten back to you earlier. I think I answered all your questions, but if you have any others feel free to ask them as well.

PS - If I may, while you are investigating purchasing a new cyclone dust collector, it is also a great time to purchase a good ambient air cleaner for your shop as well (if you have not already done so). These units take up little to no shop space (they are typically ceiling mounted) and they excel at scrubbing from the air the fine dust that inevetibally escapes (even with a dust collector). Ambient air cleaners are the perfect companion to a dust collection system and help to keep the air cleaner, the occupant healthier, and the shop much cleaner than a dust collector alone.

Good luck with your decision... whatever you decide your health will definitely be the better for it.
 

charlie jones

New User
Charlie
I am running a 2HP cyclone. It is a Clear-Vue 14" impeller unit that I have installed in an outside closet. The unit was designed to use a 5 hp motor but I got a great deal on a 2 HP Unasaw motor. I used an amp meter to measure the amp load and restricted the 6" duct just a little to keep the amps below the motors limit as per Bill Pentz's advise. As someone pointed out the rpm is the same as the 5HP. I try to keep the on-off cycles to a minumum. With the cyclone and filters in the outside closet the noise is so low I run it about all the time while I am in the shop. I am in my 5th year of use and it works great. I have 6" lines to Tablesaw and bandsaw. Reduced to 4" on the planer, jointer, router table and drum sander and a 2.5 " line to vac up with. I would not recommend any more than about 30' of pipe with this setup. :gar-Bi
 
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