Klingspor's Woodworking Shop (Asheville)

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  1. #1
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    Hide glue question

    Saw it used in a video and I really like the longer open time.

    Any idea what the open time might be for 251 gram Strength compared to tightbond 3?


    Anyone know what 1lb of Hide glue might be equivalent too volume wise?






    Thanks

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    Re: Hide glue question

    If you saw a long open time hide glue used it was either Titebond liquid hide glue, Old Brown Glue or doctored hot hide glue. Titebond has a data sheet with the different properties of their glues here: http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/Li...deTB.sflb.ashx Titebond liquid hide glue and Old Brown Glue are different from traditional hot hide glue (HHG) and have additives. You have a much shorter time before gelling with HHG unless you add Urea or salt or without additives by heating the 2 surfaces above 100f. A good general reference is this handout here: http://www.emgw.org/resources/Docume...20Workshop.pdf

    Why do you want to use hide glue?
    I use HHG when I need quick tack, invisibility under finish, future reversibility, best sound transmission, zero creep under tension and/or to maintain historic accuracy.

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  4. #3
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    Re: Hide glue question

    Wondering why you are thinking of using 251 gram if you are wondering about working time? As the numbers go up ie

    140, 165. 192 the set time get shorter.

    I have not found a reason to use 251 instead of 192 other than a bunch of rub joints that I want to set up quickly and have a little extra strength. Its truly for the quicker set up that I mix the higher glue. Most of the time I have too much and wind up pouring it in the pot of 192 and getting back to work.

    Titebond 3 and hide glue are two different animals entirely. Maybe you could say a little about what you want to use the hide glue on?

    good luck

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    Re: Hide glue question

    toolsforworking wood has hide glue and says 251 is for cabinet making so thought I might try it for furniture making. It seemed like Hide glue has longer open times and I've cut it close on a few projects so if I can extend it abit more it would be great. I could never find a guestimate on hold time for 251 other than its shorter than 192. I sent them an email with the same question and havent heard back from them yet


    Also, I'll be experimenting with glueing up different wood species, ie white oak, qs sycamore and I want to dye/stain the white oak without doing the same to the sycamore. Prestain first then glue or glue up first and then finish, etc


    I think I'll have better luck dealing with squeeze out using hide glue









    I threw up the titebond pic hoping to get an answer like 1lb hide glue is about the same amount as the jug in the middle or the bottle on the left

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    Re: Hide glue question

    If the temp drops much below ~100 deg, HHG starts to gel. Try fish glue if you want some of the properties of HHG (especially ease of clean-up) but need long set time.

    As far as the amount of HHG a pound of hide glue granules will make...~2gals. I would never make more than a cup at a time because it needs to be used fairly quickly and refrigerated or frozen and not re-heated over and over. I start with 1tbs of glue with a cup of water which is .5 oz of glue and .5 lb of water. So 1lb (16oz) of dried glue will mix with 16lbs (2 gal) of water. Its not rocket surgery and a little bit off isn't going to make a lot of difference...just don't cook it to death and test it before you use it.

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    Re: Hide glue question

    For low volume HHG users like me you can heat up a few cups of water in the microwave to ~160f, pour it in an insulated cup like this: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ozark-Tra...bler/171452737 and keep a small plastic squeeze bottle with hhg warm and ready to go all day. No need for special glue pots unless you want one. I've also used an adjustable baby bottle warmer as a hot water bath but the Ozark Trail vacuum cups are much easier. The cups are double duty and work great (exactly like the $30+ Yeti cups) for ice water.

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  11. #7
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    Re: Hide glue question

    [QUOTE=zapdafish;563123]toolsforworking wood has hide glue and says 251 is for cabinet making so thought I might try it for furniture making. It seemed like Hide glue has longer open times and I've cut it close on a few projects so if I can extend it abit more it would be great. I could never find a guestimate on hold time for 251 other than its shorter than 192. I sent them an email with the same question and havent heard back from them yet


    Also, I'll be experimenting with glueing up different wood species, ie white oak, qs sycamore and I want to dye/stain the white oak without doing the same to the sycamore. Prestain first then glue or glue up first and then finish, etc


    I think I'll have better luck dealing with squeeze out using hide glue



    Depending on how much glue you will use or need, the best source I have found for the last 25 years is Bjorn Industries. Its a one man operation run by Eugene Thorndahl. The catch with Gene is he limits orders to no smaller than 5klb bags. With shipping to Durham my last order was 56 dollars for 5 pounds.

    I really only use 192 on volume. I have a bag of 251 around here and I would be happy to share some with you if you haven't got any yet. My wife is driving up to Winston-Salem on Saturday and she could bring it with her. In the general area close to Forsyth Hospital complex.

    For some good information on hide glue, check out Patrick Edwards. I have met him several times and he is quite an authority on hide glue with the studies he's done and the business he runs out in California. Pat is the maker of Olde Brown Glue. This is a liquid hide glue in a bottle.

    Good Luck and let me know if you care to try some 251 or 192. I usually keep 5-10lbs of 192gr glue around here.

    Dan



    Hide Glue – Eugene Thorndahl (CharlotteNC) source for granulated hide

    http://www.bjorn.net/



    Patrick Edwards on hide glue use – really good informationand demonstration.(better than my demo by leaps and bounds)

    http://woodtreks.com/learn-how-hammer-veneers-hand-tools-inlay-marquetry-hide-glue/1493/

    http://woodtreks.com/animal-protein-hide-glues-how-to-make-select-history/1549/


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  13. #8
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    Re: Hide glue question

    Ooo thanks, that would be great. PMing you my contact info



    Quote Originally Posted by danmart77 View Post
    Depending on how much glue you will use or need, the best source I have found for the last 25 years is Bjorn Industries. Its a one man operation run by Eugene Thorndahl. The catch with Gene is he limits orders to no smaller than 5klb bags. With shipping to Durham my last order was 56 dollars for 5 pounds.

    I really only use 192 on volume. I have a bag of 251 around here and I would be happy to share some with you if you haven't got any yet. My wife is driving up to Winston-Salem on Saturday and she could bring it with her. In the general area close to Forsyth Hospital complex.

    For some good information on hide glue, check out Patrick Edwards. I have met him several times and he is quite an authority on hide glue with the studies he's done and the business he runs out in California. Pat is the maker of Olde Brown Glue. This is a liquid hide glue in a bottle.

    Good Luck and let me know if you care to try some 251 or 192. I usually keep 5-10lbs of 192gr glue around here.

    Dan



    Hide Glue – Eugene Thorndahl (CharlotteNC) source for granulated hide

    http://www.bjorn.net/



    Patrick Edwards on hide glue use – really good informationand demonstration.(better than my demo by leaps and bounds)

    http://woodtreks.com/learn-how-hammer-veneers-hand-tools-inlay-marquetry-hide-glue/1493/

    http://woodtreks.com/animal-protein-hide-glues-how-to-make-select-history/1549/


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    Re: Hide glue question

    Dan or Mark, I have some of the Behlen's granulated hide glue which I believe is 164 gr. Would that strength be suitable for veneer, mortise/tenon, or small box joinery? Wondering if I need to repurchase some 192 and set the 164 aside.

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    Re: Hide glue question

    I think the 164 will offer enough strength to hold any well made joint not under constant shear stress. Make sure you don't over dilute it and your joints are as near perfect as you can make them. HHG is a bad gap filler and shatters like glass when a dried blob is pushed/pulled. When a near perfect joint is glued the glue dries and sucks the two parts together. I use the Behlen's for any veneer, stringing, inlay work. For repairing chairs and table legs that have failed I use 1/4 Behlen's 164 and 3/4s BT&C 315 mixed together. For guitar/uke bridges, neck attachment to the body and headstock scarf joints I use the BT&C 315:
    https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...m/MS-HIDEGL.XX

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  17. #11
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    Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by redknife View Post
    Dan or Mark, I have some of the Behlen's granulated hide glue which I believe is 164 gr. Would that strength be suitable for veneer, mortise/tenon, or small box joinery? Wondering if I need to repurchase some 192 and set the 164 aside.
    I think the 164 should be good enough and it offers a little more assembly time than the 192. I haven't worked with the 160 stuff but I have used lower gram strength glues for the joints needing some flexibility. After watching Patrick Edward's video, I covered a pane of glass and let the glue etch the surface. Worked as advertised. So if a lower strength glue will pull glass from the flat surface of a window pane, I think it will work on a good wood joint.

    Take a look at the videos on hide glue by Patrick Edwards. He answers your questions

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