Gloss levels for various amounts of oil in a oil/varnish mix?

[kooshball]

Is there any info out there that can estimate the impact of BLO on gloss in a mixture with an Alkyd gloss resin (Pratt and lambert 38)? Obviously I can run some tests but to mix up several iterations and run them with multiple coats will take a while so I hope to find some general info to use as a guideline first.

For example, this resin alone will be glossy but how low will the gloss go in a 50/50 mix by volume with BLO? What if I go 1/3 resin and 2/3 BLO or the opposite?

Any guidance will be a big help and a potential time savings.

Thx

[eyekode]

From my experience with making the Maloof 1/3rd mixture BLO does not reduce the sheen of the varnish.
http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/finishing.htm

If you use enough coats you will end up with a full gloss finish.

Good luck and let us know what you find.
Salem

[Bill Clemmons]

Ditto what Salem said. I've used the Varnish/BLO/Thinner mix for years, w/ gloss, semi-gloss, and satin, and from what I've observed (unscientific), the BLO doesn't change the sheen.

If you want less gloss on the finished product, try rubbing it out w/ 0000 steel wool or 320 paper. If you want to bring the gloss back up, leave the BLO out of your last coat.

Bill

[Howard Acheson]

Oil/varnish mixtures applied in the correct manner are an in-the-wood finishes that does not produce any noticeable gloss. Instead you end up with sort of soft glow. It makes no difference how much BLO you use, it will not affect the gloss--or lack of gloss. Also, you can use any gloss varnish. Gloss, semi-gloss and satin will all result in the "warm gloss" sheen.

[Jeff]

+1. As always Howard is our go to guy for finishing questions. I'm confused again on a higher level.

Pratt & Lambert produce gloss, satin, and dull in their #38 line of alkyd varnishes. Check out the MSDS for contents: The satin and dull contain specific levels of amorphous silica which is responsible for their satin or dull characteristics.

http://www.prattandlambert.com/produ...alkyd_varnish/

If I take a piece of prepped wood and apply each of the 3 P&L #38 products without BLO to a section then they should all look the same with just "an in-the-wood warm glow" that Howard mentions. Correct?

Then why would P&L manufacture 3 distinctly different formulations? Are they just dumbing us down with marketing in the hope that we'll never notice the difference in the finished product, but they're providing options.

[kooshball]

Thanks guys. Is there any "build benefit" to increasing the varnish content...will I get finished with fewer coats?

Right now I am at 1/3 alkyd, 2/3 BLO + mineral spirits. If I go 50:50 on the alkyd:BLO or 2/3 alkyd, 1/3 BLO won't I get to that final warm glow quicker?

Thx.

[kooshball]

Jeff,

I think Howard is referring to any of these resins in a BLO containing system...

They are all likely the same base polymer(s) with the gloss version being "neat" and the satin and dull with various amount of duller (silica) added to create the final gloss (when mixed properly).

+1. As always Howard is our go to guy for finishing questions. I'm confused again on a higher level.

Pratt & Lambert produce gloss, satin, and dull in their #38 line of alkyd varnishes. Check out the MSDS for contents: The satin and dull contain specific levels of amorphous silica which is responsible for their satin or dull characteristics.

http://www.prattandlambert.com/produ...alkyd_varnish/

If I take a piece of prepped wood and apply each of the 3 P&L #38 products without BLO to a section then they should all look the same with just "an in-the-wood warm glow" that Howard mentions. Correct?

Then why would P&L manufacture 3 distinctly different formulations? Are they just dumbing us down with marketing in the hope that we'll never notice the difference in the finished product, but they're providing options.

[Jeff]

Jeff,

I think Howard is referring to any of these resins in a BLO containing system...

They are all likely the same base polymer(s) with the gloss version being "neat" and the satin and dull with various amount of duller (silica) added to create the final gloss (when mixed properly).

Yes, he was referring to any of these resins with BLO added as you were asking. BLO is crystal clear with its typical dark amber color so it shouldn't affect the appearance in any 3 of the #38 varnishes at the end of the day. BLO alone or mixed with MS on wood is kinda soft feeling and dull in appearance.

We'll be curious to see your comparative experiments, but I don't know how your photograph "gloss" so it may be your subjective evaluation.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> should all look the same with just "an in-the-wood warm glow

No, that is not correct. P&L 38 is an oil based varnish. BTW, "poly" is a varnish also. Poly is made with a urethane resin rather than the alkyd resin used in P&L 38. Varnishes are finishes that sit on top of the surface of the wood. Finishes like this are called film finishes (or "on-the-wood) finishes. When a certain amount of depth is built up (2-3 coats) a gloss varnish will produce a shiny, gloss surface. When the manufacture mixes in a certain amount of flatter additive, the finish loses its gloss and becomes more flat or satin. Just like poly varnishes, P&L 38 comes in gloss, semi-gloss and satin. Applied side by side on a prepared surface, all three will exhibit a different sheen.

When BLO and mineral spirits are added to the varnish you end up making a major modification to the finish. It now becomes a finish that is absorbed into the pores of the wood rather than sitting on the surface. Because it is absorbed (in-the-wood) it automatically reflects light in a manner that gives the appearance of a non-gloss finish. If you mix up an oil/varnish mixture it will the final sheen will be the same whether you start with a gloss varnish or a satin varnish.

[Jeff]

Thanks for correcting me Howard. I was referring specifically to the P&L #38 alkyd resins (gloss, satin, dull) that Kooshball was asking about. I guess that I unintentionally generalized the statement.

So if I take any one of these specific 3 P&L products with BLO added will I see a difference in the gloss level after 2-3 coats?

[eyekode]

I would stick with 1/3rds and use mineral spirits, BLO and your varnish.
You don't actually want to build any substantial film. And if you do you will NOT be happy because it will be glossy only in places and will be difficult to even out the sheen. Don't ask me how I know...
Salem

[kooshball]

The more I read here, in the link from Salem (thanks) and on a recent P&L 38 thread on sawmillcreek, the more I think I should try to combine some of these concepts.

I am not a huge fan of high gloss but I do like the depth that it can create and am not sure I can get that deep look without a film finish. I know that I can always knock the gloss down mechanically so no issue there. I am thinking about laying down two coats of my originally posted oil/varnish mix, oil sanding each at 600 grit, then wiping off the excess. Then I could thin out my P&L 38 (50:50?) with mineral spirits and wipe on and off a few more coats until I am happy with the gloss / depth.

Does this sound like a solid plan?

Thx

[eyekode]

I think that will work. If you start with the 1/3rds mixture you can put on a few coats and see what you think.
And there is nothing wrong with adding a clear coat over it. If you thin it 50/50 it makes it much easier to put on without leaving runs/marks etc. So it sounds like a plan.

But you may want to also prepare a test piece and only apply the final clear coat(s) to it first and then compare with the non-clear coated project. It will only cost you a day's longer wait and then you can see what you prefer. You may also want to prepare another test piece, coat it with Sam's 1/3rds mixture like the rest of your project and then try Sam's wax mixture on it. It adds a little more sheen as well without adding the plastic-like coat you sometimes get with film finishes.

Good luck!
Salem

[bluedawg76]

if you're going to end up "top-coating" w/ varnish it's simpler to just lay down 1-2 coats of thinned blo, let dry/cure and then begin building the varnish finish (thinned of course). ime, there's no difference. However if you will not be adding the varnish as a final top-coat aka film finish, then of course proceed as planned w/ the oil/varnish or oil/varnish/wax.

Sam

[Bill Clemmons]

Howard, thank you very, very much for your post on finishing. I try to read every one of them and feel like I'm learning something new every time I do.

Bill