Green Gloat

[LeeNC]

The biggest problem with hydrogen is most of it comes from cracking natural gas. Generating hydrogen from electricity is not particularly efficient and most of our electricity comes from coal. While the byproducts of combusting hydrogen are great, there are still total carbon footprint issues to be addressed in making the hydrogen.
The diesel electric systems for cars coming out of Europe look like some of the most practical systems to me. If you really want to cut down your carbon footprint, how about mass transit? Would not do well with plywood though.

Lee

[jerrye]

Originally Posted by DavidF

I agree, bio fuel is not the way to go and seems to have made people take their eye off of the real oportunities and at the same time raised the price of all the other corn based products and feedstuffs to a point where they will be causing hardship to a great many people.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by GeorgeL

Jerry,

Several manufacturers in Europe are working on diesel hybrids. Up until recently the problem has been that diesel engine do not like to be turned off and re-started often. Tailpipe emission, both particulate and NOx, are very high at start-up. Today with high-pressure common rail fuel system a diesel hybrid can become a reality. However, it may be a while before any diesel passenger vehicle is widely accepted in the US.

People give Toyota too much credit for inventing the hybrid, they were just the first to bring a successful hybrid to market.
George

Diesels also don't live well for short trips. Kills them as I understand it. But I agree that for long trips it seems to be the way to go. I guess for short trips electric only?

IIRC think the first successful hybrid was the Insight, depending on how you define "successful". I hear Honda & Toyota still do not make a profit on hybrids.

While we're on hybrids, why do ya'll think this technology was developed & introduced in cars that already were somewhat efficient? Seems to me the way to do this would be in inefficient vehicles?

Originally Posted by LeeNC

If you really want to cut down your carbon footprint, how about mass transit? Would not do well with plywood though.

Lee

Here in the Triangle a light rail system has been proposed, but it's a gummit program fer sure. Doesn't even go to the airport! If we could have something like the Metro in DC, I'd be ALL OVER THAT!

[Travis Porter]

Bad thing about hydrogen (at least from what I remember) is that the first batches of it for automotive type use will be made from natural gas. Better than oil, but seems like the same area.

I remember a This Old House episode where they had a team that developed a fully self powered home with solar collectors, and a self sufficient hydrogen power source. I wonder if the big oil or coal companies bought the rights to it and hid it away.

[jerrye]

I saw a story about a self-sustaining house out West (solar & wind, IIRC) that generated so much power that the owner sold his excess to the local electric company through the feed line from them! He ended up at or just below break even on his power bill! Sounds good to me!

[GeorgeL]

Originally Posted by jerrye

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!



Diesels also don't live well for short trips. Kills them as I understand it. But I agree that for long trips it seems to be the way to go. I guess for short trips electric only?

IIRC think the first successful hybrid was the Insight, depending on how you define "successful". I hear Honda & Toyota still do not make a profit on hybrids.

While we're on hybrids, why do ya'll think this technology was developed & introduced in cars that already were somewhat efficient? Seems to me the way to do this would be in inefficient vehicles?

Jerry,

Modern, high-pressure common rail diesels, ( can you say 26,500 PSI?!) also known as clean diesels, have no problem with short trip, stop-and-go driving.

As far as the Insight, it was the most fuel efficient vehicle sold in the US at 61= MPG. However hybridization had little to do with it. Light weight, aerodynamics and an already efficient 3 cylinder engine account for most of the fuel savings. Honda built just over 50,000 Insights for US consumption but only sold 25,000. No matter how fuel efficient the vehicle was, 25,000 doesn't even make a dent on our foreign oil problem. Which is REALLY a domestic oil problem but SOMEONE won't let us drill for oil here.

Today, Toyota does make a profit on every hybrid sold. I can't speak for Honda however.

I also agree that hybridization should be applied to inefficient vehicles that people want to drive. That is where GM and Chrysler have an advantage over Toyota and Honda. They are taking large SUVs and improving fuel economy by over 30%. Do that on a 1,000,000+ vehicles and you can make a difference. Whereas Toyota and Honda are taking 38-40 MPG vehicles and making a few hundred thousand of them get 50+ MPG. This may look good on paper but in reality makes little or no difference in total fuel consumption or greenhouse gasses. If hybrid drivers were REALLY interested in saving the planet, they wouldn't be driving 10 MPH below the speed limit in the left lane causing everyone else to pass at wide open throttle in the right lane. How much fuel is really saved then? If hybrid drivers were REALLY interested in saving the planet, they would give their HOV lane passes to SUV drivers who could really benefit from them.

But then again that's just me...

George

[jerrye]

Originally Posted by GeorgeL

Jerry,

Modern, high-pressure common rail diesels, ( can you say 26,500 PSI?!) also known as clean diesels, have no problem with short trip, stop-and-go driving. Good to know. We had an '84 Nissan Sentra diesel, 4-sp, that we really liked 'til the timing chain went. Didn't know if it was zero clearance engine, didn't want to take the chance, so we let it go for junk. Wife loved it 'cause within 2 blocks, stone cold in winter, she had heat!

Which is REALLY a domestic oil problem but SOMEONE won't let us drill for oil here. DON'T get me started!!!!!!

If hybrid drivers were REALLY interested in saving the planet, they wouldn't be driving 10 MPH below the speed limit in the left lane causing everyone else to pass at wide open throttle in the right lane. How much fuel is really saved then? If hybrid drivers were REALLY interested in saving the planet, they would give their HOV lane passes to SUV drivers who could really benefit from them.

But then again that's just me... Nah, I agreee with you George! Except I wish ALL drivers below traffic speed in the passing lane would move over. Had interesting conversation over dinner with a customer that hails from England, and we discussed that very issue. He put it the best I've ever heard: "American drivers have NO LANE COURTESY. They will not move out of your way if you are faster than them, and they do not understand that the left lane is for PASSING ONLY."

George

[Bas]

Call me an optimist, but things like energy prices tend to correct themselves. There is no doubt in my mind that we can make cars 50% more efficient, houses 70% more efficient, and factories 30% more efficient without major changes. But, until the cost of heating significantly outweighs the cost of insulation (and installation of said insulation), it won't happen. But when it does, it will happen quickly.

Solar power, wind power, right now it's not economically feasible. But once oil hits $150/ barrel, it will suddenly start to look very attractive. And once that happens, we'll see massive improvements in efficiency in these technologies. The only question is, how long is the interim pain period?

[GeorgeL]

Originally Posted by Travis Porter

Bad thing about hydrogen (at least from what I remember) is that the first batches of it for automotive type use will be made from natural gas. Better than oil, but seems like the same area.

I remember a This Old House episode where they had a team that developed a fully self powered home with solar collectors, and a self sufficient hydrogen power source. I wonder if the big oil or coal companies bought the rights to it and hid it away.

There are many more modern and efficient methods being developed to produce hydrogen. One such concept uses a modified strain of E-Coli which can extract hydrogen from glucose. It requires no energy, just time.

George

[LeeNC]

Originally Posted by GeorgeL

There are many more modern and efficient methods being developed to produce hydrogen. One such concept uses a modified strain of E-Coli which can extract hydrogen from glucose. It requires no energy, just time.

George

Energy has to come from somewhere. Glucose is a sugar. It is the same potential energy source with some of the same issues as ethanol. It is a plant based solar energy source. Whether it is economically viable will depend on how efficiently it can be converted into hydrogen. Right now the problem with the ethanol is depending on who is doing the math ( ) , we get out about what we put in.

Lee

[Travis Porter]

I agree. We in the US are energy pigs. Go to Europe and you see a completely different mindset about conservation of energy. It is a standard and part of their every day lives. In every hotel I stayed in, they were very conscious of towel reuse, sheets, and lights.

[jerrye]

Originally Posted by Travis Porter

I agree. We in the US are energy pigs. Go to Europe and you see a completely different mindset about conservation of energy. It is a standard and part of their every day lives. In every hotel I stayed in, they were very conscious of towel reuse, sheets, and lights.

I use Choice Hotels in my work travels. Most of them now give you the option to reuse towels & linens, though in my case it's irrelevant as I usually stay just one night.

Our hogginess as energy consumers? Cheap energy. Compared to the rest of the world, we're still cheaper...more reliable...more readily available. READ: spoiled & lazy. Yep, that's me.