North Carolina Woodworker
An Educational Service Of North Carolina Woodworker, Inc.
Changes to DQ as of 12/1/2008 Very important that you read

Go Back   North Carolina Woodworker > Tools, Equipment, and Techniques > Safety & Health

Notices

Safety & Health Share your tips and ideas about safety around the workshop, as well as woodworking-related health issues


» Announcements
Everyone Log on at 9:00PM Thursday December 4th to set a members online record.

Featured Photos
by BumoutBob
· · ·
Member Galleries
24836 photos
9957 comments
by MikeL
· · ·
Member Galleries
24836 photos
9957 comments
by woodguy1975
· · ·
Klingspor Extravaganza 2006
34 photos
3 comments
by Douglas Robinson
· · ·
Member Galleries
24836 photos
9957 comments

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-28-2008, 04:41 AM   #16
 
Name: Tom Hintz
City: Concord
State: NC
County: Cabarrus
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 298
Threads: 31
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 7.00 over 30 days

I got into a bit of a confrontation with my publisher when some dink tech editor added a spot in my book about raising the blade high above the wood to prevent a kickback. Unfortunately, I totally disagreed, as did every saw manufacturer I talked to about it. To them, this is very simple. Kickbacks most often start at the back of the blade when the wood for whatever reson touches the blade and gets lifted. Raising the blade fully does put downward force at the front, but we now have almost straight up force at the back. Not a good plan if ANYTHING varies as the wood passes.
I have a story on my site abouut this very issue at the link below.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/bldhtkick.html

I went guardless for years like many others. Now, I use them whenever I can and have discovered it is not that tough, especially with a good guard system like that on my PM2000.
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to tom hintz    
Old 08-28-2008, 08:00 AM   #17
 
AndyBarnhart's Avatar
 
Name: Andy
City: Cary
State: NC
County: Wake
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 49
Posts: 969
Threads: 99
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 6.77 over 30 days

Tom,

I think what is really hard about this is how little "real" data there is. I read your page and I agree about the additional danger of the raised blade. Then at the end you mentioned that you have had just one kickback in 30 years. I have had two in about 12 years. This doesn't mean I know more about kickbacks, but that I know less about properly tuning a saw and setting up a cut. One issue that hasn't been discussed much in this thread is hands and sticks. I usually use one hand at the fence away from the blade to hold the board down and against the fence, standing to the side of the saw on the fence side. This is why I have no issue with lifting. It burns and cuts off line and would probably lift if I didn't hold it down if thre is wiggle or kerf closing. The hand is usually my left hand initially pushing and then I switch to my right pulling later in the cut so that neither hand is ever very near the blade. I have a clamping sled for short pieces. I use the push stick near the blade pushing down and pulling toward the fence and the push stick is usually the source of any wiggle I get and to clear the off cut. I never stand in front of the saw. I have not had a kickback doing it this way. Both kickbacks occured with the guard and splitter on, blade low and worthless little pawls in contact with the wood. What factors contributed most?
__________________
-Andy

Wag more - bark less.

http://www.CarvedTones.com
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to AndyBarnhart    
Old 08-28-2008, 08:03 AM   #18
 
4yanks's Avatar
 
Name: Willie
City: Southern Pines
State: NC
County: Moore
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 386
Threads: 17
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 0.00 over 30 days

In 15 years of woodworking I have only had one (very minor) injury on the table saw. It indeed occured as a 1/4 ply drawer bottom was picked up by the back of the blade, then spun over the top of the blade and into my stomach. It felt like a very hard punch to the gut. I now always use a splitter.
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to 4yanks    
Old 08-28-2008, 08:14 AM   #19
 
Name: Tom Hintz
City: Concord
State: NC
County: Cabarrus
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 298
Threads: 31
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 7.00 over 30 days

Andy,

I really do agree that if things go perfectly, the actual blade height has little to do with much. However, it is when things don't quite go perfectly, which for all of us is pretty regular, a very small error or wiggle can grow to dangerous proportions with a bunch of blade exposed.
I never use a push stick but rather a push handle, and I use that all of the time unless I am cutting a very large piece of sheet stock. I hate the simple push stick, like the ones most saw manufacutrers include, because they provide virtually no directional control like a good push handle or rubber-soled push block will. Even so, a second or two of inattention and I am afraid a fully raidsed blade can instantly become a serious liability. I have heard from several guys who even with a splitter in place, had had a piece of wood flipped out. Thankfully, the splitter kept the wood from going across the blade where it seems the major power is generated but they did get whacked none the less. No big injuries other than bruises and one broken finger I am aware of.
I think this just shows us that regardless of having a splitter and guard in place, we can't go brain dead. We remain the most significant safety deveice around any woodworking machine.
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to tom hintz    
Old 08-28-2008, 08:58 AM   #20
 
AndyBarnhart's Avatar
 
Name: Andy
City: Cary
State: NC
County: Wake
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 49
Posts: 969
Threads: 99
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 6.77 over 30 days

Tom,

I have a push block/shoe also and it does give me better control, but using it my hand will be much closer to the blade at some point than it will with a push stick, so I only use it on really wide cuts, which I don't often do. I use the plastic push sticks manufactured as push sticks. But I agree about the operator being crucial. If we use our numbers, which are too small for much accuracy, you are 5 times less likely to get a kickback than I am (you have averaged 1 in 30 years and I average 1 in 6). Actually, it's probably worse than that when hours on the machine are factored in. But I haven't had one in about 5 years; maybe I am learning. If you keep the wood straight and on the table, it won't kickback. If you keep your hands away from the blade you can't get cut. But stuff happens - someone comes in the door and you look up or there is some bizarre stress in the wood or whatever. I just wish I could get the same accuracy with guards in place. As I mentioned earlier, it is partly due to my low end equipment.
__________________
-Andy

Wag more - bark less.

http://www.CarvedTones.com
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to AndyBarnhart    
Old 08-28-2008, 09:21 AM   #21
 
Name: Tom Hintz
City: Concord
State: NC
County: Cabarrus
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 298
Threads: 31
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 7.00 over 30 days

Originally Posted by AndyBarnhart View Post
Tom,

As I mentioned earlier, it is partly due to my low end equipment.
This is a huge problem in woodworking. The new guys with the least (or no) expereince are most likely to have the cheaper machines with guards designed to satisfy vauge laws and to do that as cheaply as possible. then you have guys like me with 30-some years in woodworking and I have what I consider to be the best saw and guard system in the business. I do need the protection but the person with so little experinece needs it at least as much, if not a bunch more. Table saws are only the focus here. The same principle happens with manhy woodworking machines.
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to tom hintz    
Old 08-28-2008, 12:22 PM   #22
 
DavidF's Avatar
 
Name: David
City: Pittsboro
State: NC
County: Chatham
Join Date: Oct 2005
Age: 51
Posts: 3,460
Threads: 157
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 3.73 over 30 days

I would say that the biggest improvementI have seen in the performance/safety on my saw (DW746) is the addition of a simple home made splitter that is shaped to apply a very small amount of lateral force towards the fence. If I try a rip cut without it I immediately notice the difference -more wiggle, bad cut and the thought that I am seconds away from a kickback. With it in place I can be sure that any stresses in the wood will not jam the blade a cause a kick back and the quality of the edge is MUCH better.
__________________
David
"There is no trouble so great or grave that cannot be much diminished by a nice cup of tea" Bernard-Paul Heroux
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to DavidF    
Old 08-28-2008, 01:48 PM   #23
 
AndyBarnhart's Avatar
 
Name: Andy
City: Cary
State: NC
County: Wake
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 49
Posts: 969
Threads: 99
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 6.77 over 30 days

Originally Posted by tom hintz View Post
This is a huge problem in woodworking. The new guys with the least (or no) expereince are most likely to have the cheaper machines with guards designed to satisfy vauge laws and to do that as cheaply as possible. then you have guys like me with 30-some years in woodworking and I have what I consider to be the best saw and guard system in the business. I do need the protection but the person with so little experinece needs it at least as much, if not a bunch more. Table saws are only the focus here. The same principle happens with manhy woodworking machines.
I will have to remember to take an embarassing picture of mine tonight. The splitter is sheet metal that is not all that strong and attaches to the back of the saw, far enough away from the front edge of the splitter that it can be knocked around and misaligned pretty easily. It does have pawls, but they aren't aggressive at all. The guard is chewed up from hitting the blade and it is not comforting to see how much damage was done just by being grazed by the blade. I have a bench top screamer well mounted on a good stand. It serves it purpose well enough; I use the band saw, router, rotary tools and hand tools for most of what I do, so I wanted a small tablesaw that is easy to shove in the corner. The blade and fence both square to the table well enough for my needs and it didn't cost much.

Because I use it so little, I made a top for it to use it as an assembly table so I usually have the guard off, which leads to "one quick cut" thinking, especially when I use the small part clamping sled.
__________________
-Andy

Wag more - bark less.

http://www.CarvedTones.com
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to AndyBarnhart    
Old 08-28-2008, 05:00 PM   #24
 
Trent Mason's Avatar
 
Name: Trent Mason
City: Wrightsville Beach
State: NC
County: New Hanover
Join Date: Feb 2008
Age: 28
Posts: 1,096
Threads: 34
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 6.77 over 30 days

Every time I cut the tablesaw (or any power tool) on I stop and really analyze the cut from start to finish, picturing the whole process in my head. Taking a moment to really think it through is very important and probably the biggest safety precaution of all.
__________________
"flight of the sea birds, scattered like lost words......"

The ability to do woodworking no longer available in Bud Light.

"We should never separate the lives we live
from the words we speak."
— Paul Wellstone
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to Trent Mason    
Old 08-28-2008, 05:23 PM   #25
 
LeftyTom's Avatar
 
Name: Tom
City: Yadkinville
State: NC
County: Yadkin
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,653
Threads: 146
Avg Visit Freq/Week
= 6.53 over 30 days

Originally Posted by NCPete View Post
Tom, which JET do you have???? Installed the Merlin Splitter on my saw, and am not ever looking to reinstall the JET guard. If yours is the contractor style, perhaps mine will fit?
Thanks for the offer, Pete. I will PM you if I cannot find one around here.
__________________
The Tao of Tom: Be good to your pet(s). Invest in good Karma.
Show Printable Version Email this Page   Quote this post in a PM to LeftyTom    
Closed Thread
  North Carolina Woodworker > Tools, Equipment, and Techniques > Safety & Health

Tags
blade , check , height

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lathe Height woodnick Power Tools and Their Use 4 05-27-2008 03:31 PM
Magnetic Height Gage Joe Scharle Tips &Tricks 1 12-26-2006 12:00 AM
Blade height on table saw Tom Dunn Power Tools and Their Use 15 12-17-2006 02:22 PM
Lathe height P Crews Woodturning 10 11-12-2006 05:06 PM

» Log in
User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

Search Rockler.com's Extensive Woodworking Catalog

Search from over
9000 products!
Search Woodcraft.com for All Your Woodworking Needs


Search Woodcraft.com For ALL Your Woodworking Needs!
Highland Woodworking Link
» Stats
Members: 2,133
Threads: 16,361
Posts: 177,696
2nd Top Poster: jeff... (6,350)
Welcome to our newest member, MarkP
» Today's Birthdays
cfelts (66)

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0
Content Copyright © 2005 - 2008 North Carolina Woodworker, Inc.