Where's the dust????? (UPDATE)

[McRabbet]

Maybe I need to steal a few of DaveO's shop elves during the Shop Crawl next weekend! Then get them some sandbox shovels and let them go wild!

[Phil Thien]

Originally Posted by Alan in Little Washington

John and Rob S. Don't get me wrong, I just felt I had to provide the full story. Everybody has different needs, means, and limitations. I just didn't want anybody spending too much time messing with something that will never perform like a true cyclone. Sometimes, ideas like Phil Thien's baffle on a bag system become almost cult-like. The legend grows to the point where reason and the actual performance are not challenged. As I said, those separators will work, to a degree. To limit your expenditure of effort and cash outlay that may be the best way for you to go. Then someday, if you need to, upgrade the blower and cartridge to a full-up cyclone system. When I built my first cyclone I had never done any sheet metal work, and I had forgotten what I learned years later when I built this latest model. They aren't that hard to build, but building one is not everyone's cup of tea.

Someone please note for the record that on 9-20-08 at approx. 12:09pm, the words "Phil Thien baffle" and "cult-like" were used together in a sentence. I sure feel like I've arrived. We need a secret handshake.

Good luck talking people out of the cult. The baffle provides better than 90% of the performance of a big cyclone for less than 10% of the cost/effort. You just can't beat those #'s.

[AndyBarnhart]

I drank the cool aid and I am baffled . I haven't used machines much since I made mine, but the few times I have I have been very pleased. I use a CleanStream HEPA filter in a shop vac, and a 40 gallon lined fiber can with a top that seals with a snap ring. I don't have anything to measure suction, but I don't seem to have much pressure loss; I can use the hose out of the collector with attachments just as if it were a shop vac. I have about $20 or so invested in mine.

[Bigdog72]

Originally Posted by Phil Thien

Someone please note for the record that on 9-20-08 at approx. 12:09pm, the words "Phil Thien baffle" and "cult-like" were used together in a sentence. I sure feel like I've arrived. We need a secret handshake.

Good luck talking people out of the cult. The baffle provides better than 90% of the performance of a big cyclone for less than 10% of the cost/effort. You just can't beat those #'s.

Phil,

Welcome to the forum and let me be the first on North Carolina Woodworker to officially thank you for your baffle design. My buddy, Skysharks, who started this thread made me a gift of the baffle he made for the 30 gallon trash can in his shop. He is a lot like Tim Allen from Home Improvement and he needed a bigger one so he got himself a 55 gallon can. I put together the can and baffle in my shop today and was very pleased with the results. Thank you for the design and, Mac, thanks for being a buddy!

[jeff...]

Originally Posted by Phil Thien

Someone please note for the record that on 9-20-08 at approx. 12:09pm, the words "Phil Thien baffle" and "cult-like" were used together in a sentence. I sure feel like I've arrived. We need a secret handshake.

Good luck talking people out of the cult. The baffle provides better than 90% of the performance of a big cyclone for less than 10% of the cost/effort. You just can't beat those #'s.

"better than 90% of the performance of a big cyclone for less than 10% of the cost/effort." SOUNDS LIKE A NO BRAIN-ER and besides we won't hold living in Wisconsin against you.

[jeff...]

Originally Posted by Bigdog72

Phil,
Thank you for the design and, Mac, thanks for being a buddy!

Now wait a min - this is going OVERBOARD

[Phil Thien]

Originally Posted by Alan in Little Washington

I'm not going to challenge Phil's 90% claim, (well, maybe just a little ) but there are two issues at play here-

One is separation efficiency- "better than 90% of the "performance" of a big cyclone," what is the definition of performance, what brand of "big" cyclone, with what type of filter and (filter area), inserted into the same duct system, with the same resistance, after the same amount of usage and possible filter compaction, what type of dust, etc., etc., etc., during comparison testing?

"Better than 90%" is, unfortunately, just a generalization drawn from anecdotal evidence. I haven't purchased a CV, Oneida, or any other brand of cyclone for the purpose of performing direct A-B comparisons.

For example, I recently had a user post at my forum that the separator he built from my design has outperformed the Dust Deputy he had/has. I consider that pretty significant.

Please keep in mind that I'm just a hobbyist/basement inventor. Spending $2000+ to acquire the CV or Oneida gear for the purposes of A-B tests would be a rather large imposition. I've only received about $250 in contributions for my design to date (much of which has gone into materials to try to refine the design).

I've often looked at the CV and Oneida sites trying to distill tests that I could duplicate, but I haven't found anything. All I can go on is anecdotal evidence.

Originally Posted by Alan in Little Washington

Some of the commercial, Ebay, and Wood Mag homebuilt cyclones on the market are, to put it frankly, total crap- inefficient design supplied with a filter that doesn't filter down to .5 micron, and even if it does, has insufficient filter area to support adequate CFM through-put. So, maybe in a true side by side comparison with one of these units, the baffle might achieve this comparative result.

If your point is, that nobody should be happy with short of a BP cyclone and that there is no sense in attempting anything different, then we will just have to disagree. Not everyone has the room or bucks to upgrade to a BP cyclone. I honestly feel like using the baffle is a worthwhile alternative.

Originally Posted by Alan in Little Washington

The second issue is system overhead, how much resistance to air flow is inherent in the design- how much internal resistance does the baffle system generate, how does that affect the fan curve (CFM and static pressure), how does that affect the system's ability to pull max air and collect the max amount of airborne dust at the source (frankly, more important that all else), and with less separation how quickly does the filter clog and cause the fan curve to deteriorate, and is that deterioration linear or what, etc., etc., etc.?

The baffle is installed by end-users with wildly varying skill levels. Some absolutely color within the lines better than others. In addition, the baffle is used in separators, and also within single-stage DC's. While talking generically about fan curves and insertion losses is pointless, I can tell you that measured (personally, by me) separator losses range from 16% to 32%. Losses from adding a baffle to a DC ring have measured (by me) between 3% and 6%.

But again, it feels like my feet are being held to the fire when I can't find any similar data to what you ask for at the CV or Oneida sites. It seems like you're saying that it is fine for them to use anecdotal data, but that I'm not allowed to.

Originally Posted by Alan in Little Washington

Often comparative statistics, even those originating in a laboratory, cause me problems, so when I see "better than 90%" I become a skeptic. "at 10% of the cost/effort" begs for details to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. I have read many threads by folks building various devices including Phil's "baffle" to improve separation of a "bag style" DC, so even trying to improve on Phil's baffle. By the time some of them are done they have expended more time, effort, and money than they would have if they had just built a cyclone.

I'd think if that were true you'd see more home-built cyclones out there. I can roll a prototype lid in about thirty minutes (start to finish) now that I'm geared up to do so. The first one I made took less than two hours. Even if someone takes a couple hours to make one and another couple of hours to tweak it, that is still only four hours. Nobody that I know of has complained of spending more time on the baffle/separator than it would have taken to build a cyclone.

Again, it seems like you're painting me in a pretty bad light. But if people here are upset at having wasted more time on baffles/separators than it would have taken to just build a cyclone, I do apologize.

Originally Posted by Alan in Little Washington

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of anything (I'm not a cult de-programmer )- just trying to give them the whole story. And I'm not trying to beat the numbers, I'm just not buying them

I'm sorry if you took the "better than 90, less than 10" as something I'd be able to back up with a peer-reviewed study or something. It was never my intention to deceive anyone. It is/was just a generalization.

I only signed-up here because I thought the cult-thing was kinda cute and I didn't mean to start a war or anything.

I should have stayed in Wisconsin.

[JimmyC]

Phil,

Stay aboard and enjoy the show, Alan's really not a bad guy. But as my late father used to say "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". Your seperator works great and is a major help to the general woodworker who is on a budget and working in a limited space, which is pretty much 90% of the woodworking population.

In a perfect world we would all have Sawstops, Festools, and dust collection systems that had large piping, with auto opening gates upon start up of the machine, that eliminated 100% (not 90%) of all dust and debris. But then again, if the world were perfect we would also have trophy wives/husbands, drive $100,000 automobiles and live in mansions with servants to clean up 100% (not 90%) of our messes.



ps. The two topics on this website that can get out of hand are dust collection and favorite BBQ choices.

[Bigdog72]

Phil,

Please don't let one dissenting opinion push you into the shadows. I think you ought to patent your design and sell it. For what it's worth, dust collection is really only as good as the operator. I was wondering why, after I made a ZCI for my tablesaw, I was getting more dust thrown on me. The answer was rather simple. You have to open the gate for the tablesaw Doesn't matter how much we spend on equip, it still comes down to grey matter!

[AndyBarnhart]

Jimmy,

I can stomach the vinegar pork hash, but my favorite is slices, chunks or ribs slathered in Jack Daniel's BBQ sauce. My youngest daughter really loves that sauce. She gets some funny looks from her friends' parents if she's over for dinner and they ask her if she likes BBQ and she says "That depends - do you have any Jack Daniels?"

I am one of the people who did not "color within the lines" well and I when I posted mine in Phil's forum he made a polite suggestion that did improve it. I have a posting here as well with pretty much all the details. I have checked my filter and it is not clogged; there isn't even enough dust to shake any out. HEPA filters can remove at least 99.97% of airborne particles 0.3 micrometers (µm) in diameter, so if a lot of fines were getting through the baffle I think I would see evidence at the filter. Mine hasn't had heavy usage yet, but it has been used a few times. Also, when I use a hose and attachment on it, I am vaccuuming up mostly fine dust, not all of it wood based. Just another anecdote...

[Tarhead]

Welcome to the group Phil!

I have witnessed some pretty heated discussions related to dust collection on some of the other discussion groups and I think we can deal with this much better here. We're a much 'closer' group...What's the saying?..."Never say something to someone that you wouldn't say to them when they're within arms reach." This is definitely our attitude here.

Now...with that said...YOU REALLY SUCK (in a good way!)
I appreciate all the work you have done with advancing the design of dust collecting pre-separators. As long as we're realistic with their function I think they're a great thing to use and definitely make life easier for things like planing a lot of lumber. I also appreciate the hazards we are exposed to in the shop. My former profession was working with people suffering with lung diseases and wouldn't wish that on anyone. One of my favorite former patients with COPD and Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis (who was a woodworker by the way and swore the cigarettes helped him) said a good day for him was like sitting under a heat lamp, inside a dry cleaning bag, after drinking 6 cups of coffee back to back. My concern is someone will go with a cheap and easy design and think they're protected from future problems with their breathing.

It's not the big particles which cause problems. It's the small ~.5-3 micron particles which impact and stay in the very small airways and can lead to bad things like Pulmonary Fibrosis, Cancer and COPD. Anything smaller than ~.5 microns gets exhaled and anything larger than ~3 microns impacts in the larger airways and the normal function of the cilia move it up and out. Couple this with other insults (smoking, heredity, other lung disease and other environmental contaminants) and you set yourself up for potential lung problems. Like I said in a different thread ..."There's dust collection and there's the Bill Pentz version of dust collection...It's like apples and pineapples."

Hand tools look better to me every day. I wonder what the mass median aerodynamic diameter of the particles from a Stanley #8 would be?
.

Take care,
Mark (getting down from his soapbox)

[jeff...]

Don Patterson made two of these Phil Thien things and showed them to me last time I was at his shop. Don gave them a good review and thumbs up. I'm sold on the design even if it did come from Wisconsin

[Phil Thien]

Originally Posted by Tarhead

My concern is someone will go with a cheap and easy design and think they're protected from future problems with their breathing.

I feel like we need to get the Mythbusters guys involved.

If there is one myth the particle counter group purchase debunked it was that a big cyclone is gonna magically remove the fines that a single-stage leaves behind.

The reason should be apparent to all of us because we can all calculate the volume of a sphere.

If a Jet 1-1/2 HP DC can do 800-CFM via a 6" pipe (very doable), then it is essentially able to evacuate a 35" sphere every second. A cyclone that can do 1000-CFM via a 6" pipe is able to evacuate a 38" sphere every second. A 3" difference between the two!

Instead of increasing CFM, we should design proper dust hoods. Adding collection to the blade guard on your table saw will improve your results .... Edited by SC...... The particle counter tests don't lie: Those w/ blade-guard base extraction had very little spike in readings when using their table saws. Those with blade-guard based DC on a single-stage unit always outperformed those with cyclones with no blade-guard based DC ( and by a wide margin).

The next issue is filtration. I unfortunately don't have any good statistics in regards to how well big cyclones separate in real world situations. Alan said that Ed only has to clean his stack every two months and he is a production shop using lots of MDF. It would be an interesting test to have Ed weigh the stuff in the bin each time he empties it, and then weigh the stuff cleaned from his filter stack at the end of the two months. That would provide some meaningful real-world data.

I have no doubt that if he were to perform that test that we'd all be very impressed by the results. Perhaps we'd find he is getting better than 99.99% gross separation (just giving them the benefit of the doubt).

Reports from users of the Thien baffle report gross separation rates in the high 90's. Furthermore, users report no perceptible reduction in CFM loss with extended use, and report seeing no big return of CFM after cleaning their filters (due to boredom). And even furthermore, users with gauges on their ductwork indicate seeing only very gradual reductions in suction due to filter loading. Yet even furthermore, even very active hobby shops report that they only find a need to clean their filters every three to four months, and that they are very satisfied with that interval.

So I say it is possible to work every bit as safely (when it comes to ultra fine dust) with a 1-1/2 HP cart.-based single-stage as it is with a large cyclone. If one pays attention to the details (like good dust hoods) that a cyclone user perhaps overlooks due to overconfidence in his big metal thing, a single-stage user will perhaps be able to work even more safely.

[Phil Thien]

Originally Posted by jeff...

I'm sold on the design even if it did come from Wisconsin

Cheese envy.

[AndyBarnhart]

When I searched around about DIY solutions, one thing I noticed is that there are very few negative antecdotes about the baffle design. No, that isn't scientific, but if you search the net you will be hard pressed to find reports of it not working out for anyone that tried it. Mine was good but not great at first but Phil pointed out that I didn't have the inflow bend properly. I made an ugly-from-the-outside-but-smooth-inside elbow from a couple of plastic tubes and now it works very well. I am sure there are a few other guys out there who did as bad or worse and didn't post it or didn't take action to make it work better if suggested, but it's hard to even find suspect posts with problems. There are a few bashing posts out there from people convinced something else is better.