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Old 10-01-2009, 11:35 AM  
Soundproofing attached garage
Name: Dennis
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Woodfish Woodfish is offline 10-01-2009, 11:35 AM

I want to make an attached garage into a workshop. However,
soundproofing is an issue that doesn't seem to have a
satisfactory answer at reasonable cost. Does anyone have
experience in this area?
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:49 PM   #16
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Andy,
I think the STC rating you are looking at is just for the panels. It would be higher when combined with the existing wall.

Adding sheetrock to an exposed area would, of course, be better than nothing. It also helps to add some sort of filler to keep the sound from resonating in an empty space. Ironically, from what I have read and what other people have told me, you do not need to fill up the entire space, just 50-75% to get good sound deadening properties. (Disclaimer, I am mildly OCD, like some of you here, so I had to fill up the cavities 100%. Don't ask my why, it just made me feel better )
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Old 10-02-2009, 03:04 PM   #17
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Jeff,
Perhaps disagreeing was too strong a word

I was just trying to say that going to the trouble of just adding an an extra sheet of sheetrock will not improve your sound isolation very much. dba may be logorithmic, but STC ratings are not, so going from a 40 to a 42 does not double your sound isolation.
Here's a chart that may be helpful. You would have to go from a 40 to a 50 to half your noise factor.

Changes in STC/Changes in Apparent Loudness:

Changes in STC RatingChanges in Apparent Loudness
+/- 1
Almost imperceptible
+/- 3
Just perceptible
+/- 5
Clearly noticeable
+/- 10
Twice (or half) as loud



My experience with Green glue is very easy to work with, it comes in a large caulk tube and you just apply it in a random pattern to the 2nd layer of sheetrock, put it in place and screw.

As far as cost goes, it runs about .85-.90 per sf, so an 8 x 20 foot wall would cost around $136. If you are going to go to the expense of applying a second layer of sheetrock, it makes sense, at least to me after reasearching all my options, to use this stuff. While expensive, it is certainly easier, and cheaper than some of the other options out there.
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Old 10-02-2009, 04:37 PM   #18
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

I went the cheep route.

http://www.amazon.com/Howard-Leight-...sr=8-2-catcorr
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Old 10-02-2009, 04:55 PM   #19
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

I made 2 small purchases that have made this less of a pressing matter at my house. One was the "Fein wannabe" ShopVac Quiet Series vacuum. It is fairly low power, but powerful enough to let me turn and rotary power carve without dusting up the garage and quiet enough that there are no complaints from inside. I pretty much have to use the hanging motor rotary and not the whiney Dremel at night for power carving, but that is doable; just makes me change bits more often. The other is a dead blow hammer. If anyone complains about the noise... Kidding; actually the dead blow I use instead of a mallet on large carving tools and it makes far less noise. It is harder to get in a good rhythm though. I schedule the loud stuff and use my hand saws a lot. I have kept my eyes open for a panel, thinking that if I place it between machine and living area, I can get away with a quick cut or two on the tablesaw, or a couple of passes on the planer.
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Old 10-02-2009, 07:09 PM   #20
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Originally Posted by FredP View Post
Yeah, but did you ever try to fit these on 2, 3, AND 4 year old?? While they're sleeping??!!
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Old 10-02-2009, 07:11 PM   #21
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Originally Posted by gfernandez View Post
Yeah, but did you ever try to fit these on 2, 3, AND 4 year old?? While they're sleeping??!!
ah ha! another use for duct tape!
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Old 10-02-2009, 09:20 PM   #22
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Check with a local commercial drywall supplier. If they sell metal studs & supplies they will have a product called 'sound reducing furring zees'. These are a sheet metal zee that has a large amount of the material removed in the middle of the zee to reduce noise transmission. It is applied perpendicular to the studs & the next layer of drywall is screwed to it. You could also add styrofoam insualtion or even old acoustical ceiling tiles between the zees to help out with sound.
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Old 10-02-2009, 09:54 PM   #23
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

How about the electronic way- sound inversion to neutralize the sound!
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:09 AM   #24
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Gentlemen,

I'm in the final stages of building a recording studio, so I hope I can speak with a bit of authority on what it takes to get isolation and sound proofing... whether I want to or not.

Fully realizing that a wood shop is no where as demanding as recording studio in terms of isolation, you can effectively deal with the problem of sound transmission using many of the same principles.

It's important to understand what you're really up against before you can successfully attack the issue with a practical solution.

First, where air goes, so goes sound.

Second, high frequencies tend to move in straight lines, with low frequencies moving more in waves.

This makes high frequencies much easier to deal with than low frequencies. As an example, think about a train. You can hear the low rumble of a train as far as a mile away, but you can't often hear the high frequency squeal of the wheels much past a few hundred feet.

Low frequencies contain as much as 10 times the amount of energy as mid and high frequencies to sound the same apparent loudness. This is a characteristic of the human hearing that has given us the Fletcher-Munson curve.

Without getting too far into it, the practical outcome is fairly straight forward; This is done by absorbing the sound energy in the material, or by isolating the sound source through decoupling.

1. Mass is the single most effective way to reduce sound transmission, especially low frequencies.
2. By far, gypsum is the single most cost effective mass you can purchase as far as building materials.
3. Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) is a bit of voodoo magic in a huge number of applications. MLV is an attempt at increasing the overall mass of a barrier. While it does increase TL, it does so at a cost factor of approx 4:1 (up to as much as 12:1) of simply adding another layer of gypsum... of ANY thickness. MLV is installed in walls and ceilings, by rolling onto the surface and tacking it to the studs. MLV works by damping the vibration of the layer of surface directly in front of it. e.g. hitting a drum with a piece of material laying on it.
MLV cannot be installed tightly stretched. If you do, it begins to act as a resonant drum head and actually REDUCES TL.

It is NOT known how tight to actually stretch MLV for optimal damping in a vertical or OH installation.
4. Resilient Channel (RC) is another often prescribed effective system of increasing TL through attempting isolation.
Many other "channels" are often mistaken for the only product that is proven to reduce sound transmission - RC1.

Hat, Z and H channels are often hyped, but rarely work as effectively as RC1.

There are a number of additional clips that attach to the channel that provide further isolation... but again, this is additional cost for nominal gain.

In dealing with all this complex, often confusing and counter intuitive stuff, the one thing that often gets over looked is HVAC. If you have HVAC that enters your shop, that is shared with your home's HVAC system, you need to isolated the duct work so that sound does not travel as flanking noise, or as direct radiated energy back up the duct work. This is achieved through the installation of a plenum or baffel.

Green glue is an excellent product. I used over 12 cases in my studio, and my TL factors are yielding approximate STC ratings of nearly 84db. Without GG, my engineer estimates we would have been in the upper 70's db range.

To achieve those ratings, I added a LOT of mass in conjunction with the use of Green Glue... along with some pretty sophisticated engineering.

The air cavity within the stud bay of the exterior ( 2x8 ) stud wall has a layer of 5/8" gypsum between each stud. The gypsum is screwed to the exterior sheeting, then caulked along the perimeter and a secondary 1x2 cleat nailed to the stud, binding the gypsum edges to the stud.

The exterior walls were then filled with R-19 insulation, paper inward facing.

Rather than building as I have done, (Room within a Room), with a completely separate 2nd inner wall, ceiling and concrete floor, the next best thing is to face your stud walls with 3/4" sheet goods. I chose OSB over MDF due to cost and concern over potential moisture. Over that layer of OSB, I attached two layers of 5/8" gypsum with a layer of green glue between the gypsum.

The use of sheet goods is far superior to an isolation clip/hat or Z channel... both in terms of structural rigidity, (which creates a denser mass to airborne noise), but it is also cheaper and you cannot short out the channel by driving a screw too far, nor can you miss the channel and create a hole through which you will loose isolation.

You can use any relatively decent construction adhesive on the stud faces before applying the sheet goods. This adds additional structural rigidity and thus compounds the solid mass effect of adding the mass of the sheet good materials.

If you use a hat/Z channel with clips, to gain the TL/STC rating that are tested as per several of the national and international standards, you must use at least double the amount of resilient channel to achieve the same screw pattern of rigidity as outline by US Gypsum, the Canadian Building Standards and the BBC. This effectively triples the cost of using resilient channel solutions over conventional wood frame construction.

To further increase TL in the mid to low frequency range, stud spacing should be increased from 16" OC to 24" OC.

To reduce the effects of noise reverberation and it's associated flanking noise, one of the more common accepted principles used, is to place squares of fabric wrapped mineral wool, or Owens-Corning 703 rigid insulation on the finished surface of walls and ceilings.

If you want to get real propeller head, you can/should further reduce flanking noise, due to impact, by eliminating any connection of the floor to the rest of the structure. This is commonly done by using a concrete saw to cut through a concrete floor, the minimum distance you can achieve, along the entire perimeter of the room, to separate it from the rest of the floor.

There is a system of creating an isolated floor which is called "floating floor". This method is extremely tedious to attempt. It really does require the assistance of a qualified PE to attempt, due to the fact that this method is essentially loading a spring to a neutral floating condition.

Doors and windows are amazingly huge holes for sound to travel through. Again, where air goes, so goes sound.

My doors are just slightly overkill for a woodshop application, but they are exterior, solid core slabs, with 1/8" sheet lead, 2 layers of 3/4" plywood/MDF, with acoustic treatment of 1" OC 703 rigid insulation and 1x hardwood for the final surface.

All doors have an adjustable threshold, with a bottom sweep that rests on the threshold, and a 2nd bottom sweep attached to the plywood. All door casings are double stop plates with neoprene gasket seals on each interior stop, and resemble a step or bank vault.

Window's are individual challenges, but the principle of how much mass you need is the same as a door; the mass should be at least equal to, or greater, than the mass/sq ft of your wall... and not allowing any air passage along the door's perimeter.

To increase the TL even further, do NOT let your interior surfaces touch at the floor, ceiling or corners. Leave at least a 1/4" gap, and caulk each gap, followed by filling the gap with 1/2" backer rod, and caulk over that. The different layers should be installed in an alternating, stepped back pattern so that the gaps actually cross over each other.

I noticed there was a link to Sound Isolation Company as a supplier of Green Glue products. While GG is a fantastic product, I cannot express my utter frustration with their acoustic caulk sold under the name of SilenSeal. The product suffers from a 50% shrinkage, poor work ability and poor manufacturing quality control. I would recommend OSI's SC-175 Acoustic Caulk. It exhibits far less shrinkage, greater work ability and the clean up is a breeze.

For my little shop, I will be integrating many of the same principles I used in the studio. Namely, gypsum between the 2x4 studs and the ceiling joists, standard pink fluffy insulation, 3/4" OSB on the stud face, followed by 5/8" FR Gypsum. I'll caulk every single hole I can find to fill.

For my floors, since my building as completely wood framed, I'll put a layer of 3 lb/sq ft mineral wool, followed by 3/4" T&G OSB sub-flooring.
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Last edited by max_in_graham; 10-05-2009 at 12:33 PM.. Reason: corrected spellin'
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:13 AM   #25
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

I apologize for the previous long winded post... but this IS a fairly complex issue, with a LOT of inadequate and often erroneous data presented.

Here are some links that are pretty much geared towards recording studios, but can easily be scaled back to the needs of a wood shop;
  • Speciality Products and Insulation
    Products:
    Mineral Wool, OC-703, OC-705 - plain and frk type, Fire Caulk
    Comments:
    National distributor with branches all over the US. Great pricing. 1" through 4" Mineral Wool and OC products. 24"x48" sheets up to 48"x96". Can purchase as many, or as few sheets as you want.
  • Sound Isolation Company
    Products:
    Green Glue - Tubes and buckets, SilenSeal Caulk
    Comments:
    Charlotte, NC based - Average Pricing, but usually have some sort of special.
  • Contractor Tool Supply
    Products:
    OSI SC-175 Acoustical Caulk
    Comments:
    Usually the best price on OSI products in the US.
  • - John L. Sayers - Acoustics forum run by Australian studio designer; John L. Sayers
  • - Studio Tips - A superb acoustics forum. Not for the faint of heart. These guys get serious on physics.
  • Rod Gervais' book "Home Recording Studio - Build it Like A Pro" (Rod is the engineer who worked with me on the design of my studio)
  • Philip Newell's book "Recording Studio Design"
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:30 AM   #26
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Max, your post is the single most informative essay on sound control that I have ever read. Thanks MUCH for sharing your extraordinary knowledge on this topic.

One question - open cell spray foam... do you have any knoweldge about it's noise deadening properties? I'm thinking about spraying it in-between the studs on the interior walls of my generator room, and then using a double layer of gypsum with green glue on the interior of the walls.

I used it in-between the studs on the walls of an old farmhouse that is less than 30' away from a highway, and it did a remarkable job of deadening the noise that was previously coming in from outside.

Thanks again for the info.

Scott
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:44 AM   #27
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

I agree with Scott! Wow! Superb! That is one for the archives!!!
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:28 PM   #28
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Thanx for the kudo's... but I'm really just a long winded ol' cuss....

The whole principle of mass being your friend is what you are after. The more effectively that you can create a solid mass is what you are trying to achieve... and hopefully within a reasonable budget. (oof... that's the one is what kills ya!)

As far as open cell spray foams... There's a bit of debate on it.

Many of the "acoustic foams" that actually work, are open cell foam. Technically they do work... but the amount of low frequency absorption is actually so little that it doesn't work in terms of practical numbers. Closed cell foams are worthless.

Again, this is in reference to open cell foam use as an acoustic treatment, and does not have a thing to do in terms of the spray foams used in the construction trades.

The little data I have seen in regards to the spray foams is that the closed cell seems to resemble it's cousin, bedding foam. e.g. decent thermal properties but less significant at reducing LF transmissions than a piece of paper.

The spray open cell foam's are fairly new technology that haven't yet been sent to places like Riverbank for testing. (If they have, no one has been discussing them.) However, IMVHO, I would guess that the open cell foams are going to work fairly well at both thermal and sound absorption... probably far better than they do as a standard acoustic treatment.

The fact that they are creating more air cells in a tighter confined space, e.g. stud bay, that they are actually creating a much more compressed "spring" and thus, would absorb more sound energy.

I remember you taking me through the farmhouse, and yes, it was darn quiet up there! So, I wouldn't be afraid to try it at all.

I would consider using 1/2"-ish plywood or even 3/4" chip board (non cert OSB) and green glue with one layer of 5/8" gypsum for your gennie room with regular pink fluffy... IF you decide to not use the open cell spray. Again, the rigidity is a compounding factor to the mass equation. The more you can tie the whole structure into a single mass, the better.

It's not like you couldn't go back and add more gypsum, but I'd probably try the open cell spray and a single layer of either wooden sheet good or gypsum and see what you get.

You could also try getting your compressor isolated by floating it on a suspension pad. (Floating a single tool is a LOT easier than an entire room.)
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:38 PM   #29
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Another cheap guy question - is it even worthwhile to consider draping sound blankets between the machine and living area? They are really cheap - here is one for $20:
http://www.markertek.com/Acoustic-Ma...AD-BLACK.xhtml

I know they don't sound proof a room, but can you strategically place one or two and have much impact on the sound transmitted in a particular direction? I have a few operations that are borderline and just a little more dampening would make them doable at a lot more hours.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:05 PM   #30
 
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Re: Soundproofing attached garage

Originally Posted by CarvedTones View Post
Another cheap guy question - is it even worthwhile to consider draping sound blankets between the machine and living area? They are really cheap - here is one for $20:
http://www.markertek.com/Acoustic-Ma...AD-BLACK.xhtml

I know they don't sound proof a room, but can you strategically place one or two and have much impact on the sound transmitted in a particular direction? I have a few operations that are borderline and just a little more dampening would make them doable at a lot more hours.
Sure... you can use those. But here's the skinny on the real deal... just use a $6 packing blanket from U-Haul or get a box of em' from U-Line. They're essentially the same thing but a LOT cheaper... even if you have to double up on em.

Other "thingy" we use in the recording biz, are called gobo's. They're pretty darn effective, and reasonably cheap to make. (granted you can purdy em' up as much as you want)

The gobo's I'll be making will be 3'x5';
1) fabric wrapped OC 703
2) 5/8" gypsum
3) 3/4" OSB/MDF or Ply
4) 1/2" Hardie Backer
5) 3/4" OSB/MDF or Ply
6) 5/8" gypsum
7) 5/8" gypsum

Other than the 703, wrapping the insulation in a burlap and putting a band of hardwood around the whole edge, you can make these for little money. Mine will be mostly made from scraps I have left over from the construction. In a studio, we generally put casters under a gobo so you can easily move em around, but in a shop, I would think you could leave em' stationary and make a angled leg for a single unit, or tie a couple of em' together with a couple of tie bars made from anything you wanted... just so long as they're stable.

1/2" Hardie Backer is cheap... I think about $7-8/sheet the last time I looked. 5/8" gypsum is what... less than $9/sheet?

Mineral wool is dirt cheap compared to OC-703, but you could use something like a packing blanket or not even use anything absorbent on one side. We generally use something absorbent on one side to minimize sound being reflected over the gobo... but you could omit the absorption to start and see how well that dampens the sound.
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