Hanging up and hanging out

[Jim Murphy]

I was blessed yesterday (Saturday, Jan 5, 2008 ) to have two extremely talented and wise fellow NCWoodworkers hang up my Clearvue. I've had the cyclone since April, and have spent the last 8 months in intense cogitation of how to properly implement the system. In spite of the amount of cranial exertion employed in the planning, the old aphorism about the best laid plans of mice and men won out, at least temporarily.

I had mounted the Clearvue bracket where I thought it would be most properly positioned. On New Year's Eve, I was fortunate enough to have two brawny friends over to visit, and I persuaded them to help me with the ungainly and somewhat heavy Leeson motor and impeller assembly. Since I was begrudging them time to enjoy some fine Canadian ale, I rapidly screwed the blower housing to the cyclone body with complete disregard to the orientation of those two critical components. Still in a rush, we (well, they) hoisted the monster assembly overhead onto the shelf. And we headed back to the cache of Canada's finest.

When they left, I went out to relish in the joy of knowing that the beast had been placed. Of course, in the fullness of time, I noticed that the alignment of the blower housing and cyclone intake chute was way wrong, and the unit wasn't high enough to allow the dust barrel underneath, and the intake chute would need a hole cut in the door. Holes in doors for dust pipes don't usually work out well. Oh woe. The weight of the unit was such that no ordinary mortal could possibly dismount and remount. What to do?

Well of course, the answer was send out the cry for help. Professional help this time, not rank amateurs who are experienced at uncapping bottles but novices and neophytes at hanging a Clearvue cyclone. Of course, the only responsible action was to post the request for aid on The Friendliest Woodworking Site on the Internet.

And look what showed up Saturday morning, on time, bright eyed and somewhat bushy tailed, although it's definitely difficult to maintain a bushy tail in freezing weather.



For those of you who don't know these talented professionals, that's TravisPorter on the left and FredP on the right. They're standing in front of the door that needed a hole for the dust pipe. Fred and Travis agreed that cutting a hole in the door wasn't the best design, and agreed to help remedy the problem. So, down came the unit, the motor and impeller were separated from the cyclone and blower housing and placed outside.



The brain trust I had encouraged to assist kicked into high gear, and we adjusted the alignment, carefully designed the new shelf location, and hoisted the behemoth back into place. Done? Oh no. The plans of mice and men once again had gone astray. I shall not bore you with the details (and shame myself in the process), but suffice it to say with judicious use of a sawzall and a couple of hammers and some grunting and heaving, we achieved a victory.



This shows the Clearvue (yes, that is Powermatic Gold paint) hanging up, perfectly aligned to bring the dust piping through the sidewall rather than the door.



And here you see how nicely the dust barrel fits under the cyclone.

Total time involved in the operation was approximately an hour and a half. The next two and half hours were spent in the warmth of the shop, slurping coffee, eating cheese and crackers, looking at my limited supply of wood-butchering toys and swapping tall tales of amazing woodworking prowess.

All in all an excellent use of a chilly January Saturday morning.

And my special thanks to the two skilled craftsmen who did all the work. I spent most of my time running into the shop getting tools we hadn't anticipated. At least I didn't have to head out to a BORG to acquire anything.

[JackLeg]

Great job, Jim!
Friends are great, aren't they? Kudos to the pair of elves.


On a side note, I was really glad to see a picture of Fred. I had begun to think that was really him in his avatar!!!

[McRabbet]

Hey, Jim -- it looks like you guys had a real adventure installing that clear beauty! Ironically, I started putting a primer/sealer coat on my ClearVue CV1800 MDF parts just yesterday and look forward to installing it under my shop later this spring (once I find out if I need to have shoulder surgery after my post-Christmas fall). I've had mine since early November and put installation on hold until my Christmas projects were completed, so I sympathize with your wait. I plan to paint mine a Dark Green, which is my default cabinet color, even before my purchase of several Grizzly power tools.

I do have a few questions for you -- 1) What ductwork are you going to use? (I'm using SD2729 PVC); 2) What controls do you plan for turning it on and off? (I have a remote control actuated 220V relay -- same as sold by ClearVue -- and I'm adding a bin sensor patterned after the photocell unit that Alan in Little Washington designed); 3) Where did you get the fiber drum? (I've been looking for a full lid plastic drum or fiber drum for mine and have not found one yet -- I do have a galvanized trash can that I can start with).

Keep us posted with additional pics as you complete the setup -- if you're interested in the bin sensor stuff I'm doing, I can share that info with you (I plan to photo document my installation when I get closer to actually doing it).

[Bas]

Originally Posted by fernhollowman

I've had the cyclone since April, and have spent the last 8 months in intense cogitation of how to properly implement the system.

I've noticed there is a pretty big gap between theory and implementation when it comes to dust collection. After all is said and done about Cubic Feet per Minute, Static Pressure, Horsepower and Impeller Size, there are so many practical issues to solve in mounting cyclones and running pipes.

Originally Posted by fernhollowman

For those of you who don't know these talented professionals, that's TravisPorter on the left

That's easy to tell, look how his right arm is crooked from operating his massive slider table saw.

Originally Posted by fernhollowman

and FredP on the right

Recognized him right away from his avatar.

Originally Posted by fernhollowman

And my special thanks to the two skilled craftsmen who did all the work.

Major kudos to Travis and Fred for helping out. It's January and yet that Christmas spirit seems to have lingered.....

[Jim Murphy]

Originally Posted by McRabbet

I do have a few questions for you -- 1) What ductwork are you going to use? (I'm using SD2729 PVC); 2) What controls do you plan for turning it on and off? (I have a remote control actuated 220V relay -- same as sold by ClearVue -- and I'm adding a bin sensor patterned after the photocell unit that Alan in Little Washington designed); 3) Where did you get the fiber drum? (I've been looking for a full lid plastic drum or fiber drum for mine and have not found one yet -- I do have a galvanized trash can that I can start with).

Fail not to remember that the best laid plans of rabbits and men oft go astray. With that timely caveat, I'll reply.

1) Roger that on the 2729 in 6", reduced to 4" for bandsaw, PM66 and planer at last possible moment. When the lunchbox is upgraded to a real planer, I will continue with the 6" stuff.

2) More intense cranial efforts is needed, as well as research. A combination of remote, blast gate position and voltage sensor. The remote is obvious. I have some magnetic proximity switches my burglar alarm company representative neighbor gave me, and am toying with the idea of mounting them on the blast gates. They would carry a 12 volt (AC or DC, doesn't matter, stolen from one of the many extra wall-wart transformers I have accumulated) signal that would trip a 12V-120V relay which would trip the 120-240 relay.

It is my current belief (excuse the pun) that I can power the 120v side of the big relay from multiple sources. As long as the various switches are open, they will not backfeed and any of a number of actuating circuits can cause the DC to start and stop. Now, if I can find a source for a voltage sensing module, I think I'd prefer to have the system start and stop based on sensing the current draw of each machine. I have yet to do that research, but feel that this might be a sort of commodity item that is mass produced and reasonably cheap.
Something like this: http://www.crmagnetics.com/newprod/P...rodName=CR4395

But there's a part of me that says the proximity switch on the blast gate is the better solution, because I really believe that I will forget to open the gate and the current sensor will be tripping, but no dust suckage will occur.

2A) Yes, I would be interested in your efforts with respect to the full drum cutoff that Alan ILW engineered. As you probably know, the Clearvue website has details on some sort of tiny motor that stops turning when full, so that's another option, but that seems like a lot of assembly effort.

3) McMaster Carr ( page 1664 ) for the fiberboard can. As best I remember, it was about $35 and the shipping was reasonable. They just put a shipping label on the empty drum and Mr UPS brings it to your door. However, you will need to mount the Clearvue so the top of the motor is at least 9 feet from the floor for the dust barrel to fit underneath.

3A) I ordered some plastic hose from McMaster that is due here next week. McM lists the vacuum rating of the tubing, and it is about double the max pull listed on Ed's website. It ain't cheap, and I'll let you know how it turns out.

You keep me posted and I'll keep you posted, and we'll soon catch DaveO.

[scsmith42]

Jim, GREAT POST!

Regarding the question of how to turn the DC on and off, I like your low voltage blast gate idea, primarily because it has a "fail-safe" system to require you to shut the gates in order to turn the DC off.

With respect to the voltage sensing alternative, here's a thought for you... rather than installing voltage sensors at each piece of equipment (thus requiring multiple sensors and wiring runs), how about placing some type of inductive sensor in or adjacent to your load center, and run all of the wiring feeds to the various pieces of equipment through the sensor? That way you only require one sensor and wiring run, yet it could be tripped from multiple sources.

You might have to just grab one leg of the 240 runs for it to work - I haven't studied up on how the inductive sensors work but I do know that I can't measure current draw via an inductive sensor on both legs of a 240 circuit simultaneously with my Fluke.

Just something to think about...

Scott

[Alan in Little Washington]

You are going to have a nice system there!!!

For those who have not mounted your blowers/cyclones- here is the easy way . . . .

Trust me, just the little woman* and and I* mounted my heavy 3 hp motor and blower with steel enclosure and heavy 14" steel impeller (are you sensing that I'm trying to say it was heavy?) almost 10' high on the wall, all the way up against the ceiling of my garage!!!!

The key to this method which will work with a traditional cyclone setup like the clearvue with blower on top, is to pre-assemble your mount and attach the DC unit to it on the ground. Then attach the entire rig to one end of a set of 2 X 4 legs. I used two 10' 2 X 4's . If needed you can add some cross braces to the 2X4's. Then all you need to do is lift it and tilt it up like you would a ladder except with the feet against wall. The higher you tilt the unit, the steeper the angle, and the less weight you need to lift. Once the whole assembly is vertical it only takes light pressure to hold it there since almost all the the weight is now being borne by the 2X4 legs. Once vertical, you can lag bolt the the 2X4's to the wall. You have a choice of using a number of bolts to hold the upper part up and against the wall, then you can cut away the lower part of the 2X4 legs, or I recommend you leave the 2X4 legs so they continue to take most of the weight and only use a few bolts to hold the assembly to the wall- then you can easily lower it if you need to later. To make it easier to lag bolt the 2X4's to the studs, I located and pre-drilled the holes in the legs for the lag bolts before attaching the blower.

* Neither my wife and I are powerful people, but I could have raised the whole thing by myself with a block and tackle setup! Here are two pics that I hope illustrate what I did.

Here is the motor/blower mounted to the 2X4 legs, and everything bolted to the wall (my blower is not mounted on top of my cyclone because my unit is configured in a push-though mode.)



A close-up of the motor/blower. The motor was pre-mounted to the 2X4's with the carriage bolts visible; the 2X4's are lag bolted to the wall studs- the motor is hiding the bolt near the top of the right hand 2X4.



This is the second installation I have done like this, though this was the tallest.

[Alan in Little Washington]

Some of my DC musings (in response to your DC musings )

Originally Posted by fernhollowman

Fail not to remember that the best laid plans of rabbits and men oft go astray. With that timely caveat, I'll reply.

1) Roger that on the 2729 in 6", reduced to 4" for bandsaw, PM66 and planer at last possible moment. When the lunchbox is upgraded to a real planer, I will continue with the 6" stuff.

Run 6" everywhere, only reduce as absolutely necessary to attach to a machine.

2) More intense cranial efforts is needed, as well as research. A combination of remote, blast gate position and voltage sensor. The remote is obvious. I have some magnetic proximity switches my burglar alarm company representative neighbor gave me, and am toying with the idea of mounting them on the blast gates. They would carry a 12 volt (AC or DC, doesn't matter, stolen from one of the many extra wall-wart transformers I have accumulated) signal that would trip a 12V-120V relay which would trip the 120-240 relay.

Despite the tinkerer that I am, after much, much, much, much thought I decided I did not want a full automated system, plus couldn't afford one anyway. It is not good to turn the DC motor on and off too often. With a 5 Hp Clearvue, you can afford to leave one or more blast gates open. I usually leave my table saw blast gate open all the time (because I haven't attached a remote actuator to it yet and it is very hard to reach). I am still considering whether to automate the blast gates (not the DC) so that they open when the machine is on and close when off, but an off delay would be absolutely necessary to ensure lingering dust is removed once the machine is shut down. Also, I sometimes work with two machines going at the same time. My temporary solution is to add short remote manual actuators to the blast gates consisting of a length of stiff, but thin solid steel piano wire running though a length of thin nylaflow tubing (think model airplane actuators/tubes) from a some sort of lever at the tool or mounted to the wall and to the gate slide.

It is my current belief (excuse the pun) that I can power the 120v side of the big relay from multiple sources. As long as the various switches are open, they will not backfeed and any of a number of actuating circuits can cause the DC to start and stop. Now, if I can find a source for a voltage sensing module, I think I'd prefer to have the system start and stop based on sensing the current draw of each machine. I have yet to do that research, but feel that this might be a sort of commodity item that is mass produced and reasonably cheap.
Something like this: http://www.crmagnetics.com/newprod/P...rodName=CR4395

But there's a part of me that says the proximity switch on the blast gate is the better solution, because I really believe that I will forget to open the gate and the current sensor will be tripping, but no dust suckage will occur.

I am using a 3-pole 30Amp, 220v contactor w/24 volt coil. I use one of the three sets of contacts for the latching part of the circuit. Benefits- you can easily run many control stations with low voltage/gauge wire. A latching circuit ensures that once shut off, your DC won't start on its own during power interruptions. Wiring can be a brain-teaser, but an unlimited number of daisy-chained, full control, on/off stations can be wired (w/just 3 wires)- I have 6 control stations and will eventually have a 7th on a pendant hanging from the ceiling over my tablesaw.

2A) Yes, I would be interested in your efforts with respect to the full drum cutoff that Alan ILW engineered. As you probably know, the Clearvue website has details on some sort of tiny motor that stops turning when full, so that's another option, but that seems like a lot of assembly effort.

I would be happy to help with my auto-cut-off. Take a look at my post, and also the one with the sketches of the wiring diagram and mod to the dust bin- both are key elements to a good intallation. It continues to work superbly!!!! I had a bulb burn out on me the other day- no problem- just shuts down the system.

3) McMaster Carr ( page 1664 ) for the fiberboard can. As best I remember, it was about $35 and the shipping was reasonable. They just put a shipping label on the empty drum and Mr UPS brings it to your door. However, you will need to mount the Clearvue so the top of the motor is at least 9 feet from the floor for the dust barrel to fit underneath.

See note above about the mod to the dust bin.

3A) I ordered some plastic hose from McMaster that is due here next week. McM lists the vacuum rating of the tubing, and it is about double the max pull listed on Ed's website. It ain't cheap, and I'll let you know how it turns out.

If that is the 6" lighter duty stuff, I just got 25' from MMCarr last week. As mentioned by someone else, it is not as heavy duty as some from other sources but should do just fine unless you abuse it. I will run a 6' length to my new beast.

You keep me posted and I'll keep you posted, and we'll soon catch DaveO.

[sapwood]

Great story Jim
I immediately identified those guys hanging around your shop. I'm sure they were immensely helpful resolving your struggles. However, you need to inventory your tool assets and see what's missing

Roger

[FredP]

Originally Posted by sapwood

Great story Jim
I immediately identified those guys hanging around your shop. I'm sure they were immensely helpful resolving your struggles. However, you need to inventory your tool assets and see what's missing

Roger

now sap you know I would never steal anything I couldnt carry or drag! unless its drivable! a good time was had by all!

[FredP]

twas a great visit! went by travis shop afterwards just to see if there was anything else i might need! couldnt score there either... darn dog!!!

[jeff...]

Fred looks like he's all set and ready to lead the dog time through the frozen tundra - It wasn't THAT cold yesterday

[FredP]

Originally Posted by jeff...

Fred looks like he's all set and ready to lead the dog time through the frozen tundra - It wasn't THAT cold yesterday

fred dont takes no chances with the twins! he likes keepin things warm! didnt know if the shop i was goin to was heated or not or how long this quick job was gonna take!

[Travis Porter]

I don't steal anything. I might borrow it for an extended period of time, but steal, never!

Always neat to go to someone elses shop, make a mess, and leave knowing that I can't see the disaster I left from my house!

Hmmm... I better be careful. Fred came by my shop after we left FHM's. Fred, what did you borrow?