Gloat in Progress

[lottathought]

Had this pipe laying around thanks to Scott and Jimmy.
Could not let it sit there...and I figured that the best way to motivate me to finish the setup was to start it.

Probably not going to have the funds to finish this dust collection system till the spring.
I also am still thinking how I want to run one of the offshoots...

But I think you will get the idea.

[JimmyC]

Michael,
Just getting that pipe up over the weekend should be a gloat in itself. I didn't even take mine out of my truck until Sunday and Stuart (Tarheel) isn't going to be getting his until Wednesday.

Good Job !

Jimmy

[Alan in Little Washington]

That will be a nice setup. Great to have all that pipe and the headroom to run it overhead.

A few comments- you might want to replace that "T" with a with a "Y" in the first pic. You also might want to see if you can replace the two 90's in the third pic with two 45's and a diagonal run of pipe. For best flow you need to limit the number of bends, especially tight radius 90's, and don't use "T's" which are essentially zero radius 90's.

[scsmith42]

Michael - looking good! Ditto Alan's comments.

Scott

[DaveO]

You're supposed to do something with that pipe
I guess that's why we didn't play with DT jigs on Saturday. Where did you get your fittings???

Dave

[lottathought]

Thanks for the info Alan.
I did limit the number of outlets to keep down the hanging hose interference. I did not know that the angles would matter so much though.


And Dave...yeah..I started putting up the pipe on Saturday. The next thing I knew, it was midnight.
I guess I am slow...but it took a while to get the pieces up, sealed and mounted.
As for the fittings..the BORG.
BTW..if you or Jimmy are putting yours up anytime soon, I have plenty of the strapping to mount it to the ceiling. I picked up a 100' roll and have used maybe 10' of it.

And just to educate me...
I plan on having blast gates at all the stations. I am curious though as to what everybody would consider to be an adequate amount of CFM that the collector will need to be able to pull to make this work proper?

[JimmyC]

Originally Posted by lottathought

Thanks for the info Alan.
I did limit the number of outlets to keep down the hanging hose interference. I did not know that the angles would matter so much though.


And Dave...yeah..I started putting up the pipe on Saturday. The next thing I knew, it was midnight.
I guess I am slow...but it took a while to get the pieces up, sealed and mounted.
As for the fittings..the BORG.
BTW..if you or Jimmy are putting yours up anytime soon, I have plenty of the strapping to mount it to the ceiling. I picked up a 100' roll and have used maybe 10' of it.

And just to educate me...
I plan on having blast gates at all the stations. I am curious though as to what everybody would consider to be an adequate amount of CFM that the collector will
need to be able to pull to make this work proper?

Michael,

Thanks for the offer of pipe, I'll keep it in mind. From what I've read, you need at least 800cfm for dust to to stay suspended in a 6" pipe. For more info on dust collecting check out Bill Pentz's website
http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

I have a Grizzly 2hp DC, which should work with, especially when I add a Wynn filter http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm

I'm sure others will weigh in with their opinion as this seems to be a touchy subject.

One note: All experts say to not use standard HVAC pipe(30ga) such as ours, But I put a length on the inlet of my 1550cfm DC, blocked it up, turned it on and it did not collapse. So for now I have no problem using the pipe ( especially at the cost).

I agree with everyone else about using wyes instead of tees.

I have some books on Dust collecting. If you want to borrow them. let me know and I'll drop them off.

Jimmy

[lottathought]

Thanks again Jimmy,
Yeah..if I am going to make changes, might as well see if there are more ideas in the book that I might want to add.

Hope I do not have to drop the entire pipe to get the T out and the Y in..

[Alan in Little Washington]

Michael- If you go to Bill Pentz site I believe he has the info on computing DC/duct performance. You will note that both pipe (length and diam.), which you don't have much control over, and fittings (the number of bends and severity of the angle) are the factors that affect performance.

First, I need to add a little bit about DC performance- realistically there are two types (1) cleanliness-does the DC suck up most of the chips and dust? (2) heath- does the DC remove the majority of fine, airborne, unhealthy, dust- at the machine and does the dust reenter the air because you are using a typical (overly porous) fabric filter bag that is located in your shop? Though both aren't mutually exclusive, many woodworkers, me included, too often value (1) over (2). Bill Pentz's site is focused heavily on (2).

That being said here are some general guidelines for both types of performance for a whole-shop setup which it looks like you are installing:

• Pipe should be sized for the blower (motor hp and impeller diam.)- generally no smaller than 4", and preferably 6" (or larger), for max CFM and to meet the needs of the typical WW machine.
• Keep duct as large as possible, as long as possible, right up to the machine.
• Limit the use of flex hose
• The blower should be minimum of 2 hp w/12" impeller and preferably 3-5 hp, w/14" impeller
• Runs should be as short as possible, with minimum bends. Instead of running pipe around the perimeter of a shop- run it down the center or diagonally, have two mains instead of one long meandering run.
• Where bends are necessary, they should be gentle, sweeping, large radius bends. Use wyes (NEVER "T's"), 45's, and as few 90's as possible. Use smooth, fixed, long radius bends if available rather than adjustable radius bends due to the irregular interior. If it gets you a larger radius use two 45's vs one 90. In simple terms you want as few turns as possible.
• Seal all CFM-stealing leaks

One other suggestion- assemble your duct system so you can easily take it apart- it is not a question of if you will reconfigure, it is when. Don't use duct tape- goes bad and leaves residue. If you use tape, use the foil type that HVAC guys use. Silcone works very well on both metal and PVC duct. I friction-fit all my pipe-fittings, used very few screws, and once assembled added a very small bead of silicone to the outside of the fittings. Just a tiny bit of silicone caulk applied to the outside of pipe/fitting joints will seal well (remember, the pipe is under suction). The silicone doesn't bond very well so you can rub it off with your fingers- makes it easy to reuse the pipe and fittings.

[Travis Porter]

Originally Posted by twodognc

One note: All experts say to not use standard HVAC pipe(30ga) such as ours, But I put a length on the inlet of my 1550cfm DC, blocked it up, turned it on and it did not collapse. So for now I have no problem using the pipe ( especially at the cost).

Jimmy

I have a fairly large cyclone with a 3 HP motor and used the same pipe as you guys. I have sealed it very tightly (the same manner as Alan suggests) and have yet to see a pipe come close to collapsing. I sincerely doubt you will have any issues whatsoever.

As for the 90's, tee's, and wyes, they make more difference than I would have ever believed. True wide radius 90's are expensive and you can use two 45's as Alan suggests and get the same performance. FWIW, Never use a tee only use wyes. It robs your suction horrendously. DAMHIKT.

[lottathought]

Since Alan's post, I have started to read what Bill Pentz has to say. There is quite a lot there so I will be reading for a while.
Looks like I am going to be redoing things a bit.

[JimmyC]

Originally Posted by Travis Porter

I have a fairly large cyclone with a 3 HP motor and used the same pipe as you guys. I have sealed it very tightly (the same manner as Alan suggests) and have yet to see a pipe come close to collapsing. I sincerely doubt you will have any issues whatsoever.

As for the 90's, tee's, and wyes, they make more difference than I would have ever believed. True wide radius 90's are expensive and you can use two 45's as Alan suggests and get the same performance. FWIW, Never use a tee only use wyes. It robs your suction horrendously. DAMHIKT.

Travis,

I've been following this thread closely for obvious reasons. Thank you for letting me know that your system has the same pipe, now I feel good about installing it. BTW where did you buy your fittings, and did you run 6" to all of your machines.

Thank you,
Jimmy

[Alan in Little Washington]

Originally Posted by twodognc

Travis,

I've been following this thread closely for obvious reasons. Thank you for letting me know that your system has the same pipe, now I feel good about installing it. BTW where did you buy your fittings, and did you run 6" to all of your machines.

Thank you,
Jimmy

I'm not Travis (not that there is anything wrong with being Travis ), but I ran 6" to all the way to most of my machines- tablesaw, Jointer, Planer, drum sander, and mitersaw (and will likely run 6" to the band saw). I basically ran 6" to all the large dust producing machines with large dust ports or ones where I made my own ports. The only 4" ports I have are used with machines with small ports of their own to begin with- router table and sanding station. And technically my 4" ports are 4" taps as opposed to 4" drops, since they are all within 12" of a 6" main duct.

Remember you really do not need to increase static pressure and velocity (happens when you reduce pipe size), you need to capture and move the largest volume of air and dust at the source. Of course, this depends to some extent on the rating of your blower, but the only time you might want to reduce pipe size is at the end of a long run to a machine that produces heavy/large chips, so that the increased velocity keeps the chips/dust in suspension in the air stream. Otherwise, there is no need, and in fact not recommended, to reduce from 6" to 4" pipe.

[JimmyC]

Alan,
I know that you've talked with Bill Pentz so I respect your opinion. I too, want to run 6" all the way to my 4" outlets on my tablesaw, planer and jointer and I'm mainly interested of any gain that would be acheived by changing those outlet ports to 6".

Thanks for any input.

Jimmy

[Alan in Little Washington]

Originally Posted by twodognc

Alan,
I know that you've talked with Bill Pentz so I respect your opinion. I too, want to run 6" all the way to my 4" outlets on my tablesaw, planer and jointer and I'm mainly interested of any gain that would be acheived by changing those outlet ports to 6".

Thanks for any input.

Jimmy

If it is not too much trouble, I would go ahead and change as many machine outlets and DC piping/ports as you can to 6" (even if your current DC is marginal- you'll likely upgrade). I made my own outlets for the tablesaw, jointer, and drum sander. The new (old) 20" planer (the beast ) already has a 6" outlet and though I will likely change it so it exits to the side, it will still be 6".

Here is a pic of the tablesaw outlet taken before I built the new mobile base and tables. The outlet is made from MDF (painted gray) and half of a PVC connector . It is screwed over the Uni's existing rectangular side chute opening, but I made it so it angles out the back.



Another view:



Here, the jointer (and tablesaw) are connected to the in-floor ports via short lengths of flex hose. My homemade blast gates are made with (half of) a PVC connector on one side and short length of pipe on the other, so they can be moved around easily. Since the ports for these two machines are in the floor, I attached the blast gates to the machine outlet. I had leftover expanded (not really bell) pipe ends, I used those for quick disconnects. With a little finesse you can insert flex into the expanded end of S&D.



This old pic taken before I drywalled my shop not only shows the 6" outlet for my drum sander made from a section of pipe and a piece of 2X6, but shows some ducting details:

• Max use of 45's - 2 45's instead of a 90 for gentler radius, 45 plus a "Y" equals a 90;
• Minimal piping for 4" port (this 4" is a "spare" and rarely used, sometimes with a vac hose);
• This branch run is 6" and connects with the main in the garage below via a sloped section of pipe with a "Y" at both ends.

You can go into the tables to figure loss due to pipe size and length, changes in size, and turns, but my recommendation is to go with 6" wherever possible- you can always connect a 4" line with a reducer to a 6" port. It does no good to do it in reverse (6" flex to a 4" port). By using 6" ports you have the flexibility of attaching any machine (now and future machines) to any DC port in your shop.