Time Clock Coming soon. - Page 4

Time Clock Coming soon. · 10-14-2009, 10:53 AM

Hi All, I seem to run into the same problem over and over again. Almost every customer that comes to pick up there lumber, they try to beat me down on the time. I do not ride the clock, but,.... I have no way of proving it. I am going to buy a regular old time clock and cards in hopes of being able to show the customer. What I'm thinking is,... when the customer gets here writing him a ticket with what logs he brought, how many of each and have them sign it. Then, go over and start my forklift and from there walk over to the time clock and clock in. Then it's on. Anytime a drive in customer pulls up I can punch out to talk to them and back in when I'm done with him. I would do the same at break time and lunch time. Then when the customer comes for their lumber have the ticket all added up for them and when they buck on the time just show them the time card. That is as honest as I know how to be. But if they think I am a crook or a clock rider then they will know that from then on and have the option to find someone else to mill the logs. I just gave a guy my bill, and he was here the whole time but wanted to argue the time. I think this will put an end to that. One of the last things this guy said to me before he left was,... the last guy that I used didn't charge me that much. I ended up knocking 4 whole hours off his bill purely out of the goodness of my heart. And then he said that.That set me on fire. He acted like a best friend untill he got the bill. I still have 4 of his logs and he's gonna come back this weekend to help mill them. I think I'm gonna tell him, I've given it much thought and I think it would be best if we just loaded his logs up on his trailer and he can haul them to that guy that does it so much cheaper. I can go broke sitting on the couch. I'm tired of being the nice guy that takes a beating by every customer that comes along. I bought my mill as a hobby and I think I'm gonna take it back there. If ya gotta count minutes you can't afford me. The truth is the truth and I'm tired of bowing down to these tight wad folks that want everything for free. I think I pass along some really good deals but I'm starting to take a beating because of it. Do You all think the time clock will help? Any other ideas would be great.

CarvedTones · 10-16-2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kyle

I generally give good estimates but there are too many variables with logs..Like I said metal, crooked logs, size and species, age of the log all affect volume and quality. If you need a comparison regarding how much "you saved" .45/bf for a walnut log you had sawed yourself is a lot cheaper than 3.25 a bf kiln dried.

Its all in how you look at the data I guess.

Or, as John noted, how other parties look at it. My wife does appreciate it if I am going a route that will save money, but the budget line items are amount spent, not saved.

I absolutely understand the savings are significant and I would not try to haggle if it is discouraged and even if the sawyer is open to a little negotiation it would be a quick back and forth to arrive at a price I would likely accept. I guess I don't understand why the overhead can't be averaged in, though I guess I can see how it might be fairer to charge the guy with metal in his crooked logs more money.

Kyle · 10-16-2009, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by CarvedTones

Or, as John noted, how other parties look at it. My wife does appreciate it if I am going a route that will save money, but the budget line items are amount spent, not saved. I absolutely understand the savings are significant and I would not try to haggle if it is discouraged and even if the sawyer is open to a little negotiation it would be a quick back and forth to arrive at a price I would likely accept. I guess I don't understand why the overhead can't be averaged in, though I guess I can see how it might be fairer to charge the guy with metal in his crooked logs more money.

That does include the overhead at .45/bf or 45/dollars an hour... it is not a random number as I did a total supply chain cost analysis and covered variables most small mills do not at .25/bf

The ones charging Amish prices are losing money and do not know it.

wayne · 10-16-2009, 12:17 PM

I've been following this thread and was going to refrain from commenting but here's my take on this coming from someone that has been self-employed for 95% of my adult life.
There have been some good points raised from a lot of you that commented. My take on the subject is I don't care what the service you're performing is if you are'nt expereinced at and professional enough at what you're doing to be able to give the customer a decent estimate with a low and a high figure and get them out for somewhere in between that figure then you probably should'nt be performing those services for hire.
Yes there are going to be a few times when you come up short useing that train of thought and there will be lots of times you will come out to the good and they'll average out usually to your advantage. If you are in it for a quick dollar every now and then maybe not but if that is what you are making your living at it'll work in the long run. I don't like blank checks when doing business because I feel they are counter productive to efficeincy.
And always leave the freindship at the door when the work starts if it's you main source of income because business and freindship don't mix.When presented with the cliche you can do better then that cause we're freinds my responce was always I have to make my living off my freinds and aquaintisees because my enemy's are'nt going to do business with me.
One of my past employers that I bought out when he retired had a saying You can shear a sheep forever but you can only skin him once so do you want repeat customers or do you want a oonetime shot at him. If you survive in the service business world you have to do it with repeat customers not one time shots.
Just my Humble opinion and not meant to denigrate anyone that has offered advice.

Wayne

boxxmaker · 10-16-2009, 05:45 PM

To me theres a big differance in screwing people over and getting a fair price.I would find out exactly what they want,then figure up a price and give it to them.Then when your done they have NO complaints.I was in business for many yrs myself,and I always gave an estimate up front(Autobody Repair) and there was that certain % that would gripe about the labor,material and whatever they could think of to get me to lower the price.After that if they showed up again,I would double the estimate,because I didn't need to deal with those kind and I never lacked for work.So basicaly what I am say is give em a price and they can take it or leave it and if you have been giving folks an honest price for an honest days work,then you will do just fine.

JackLeg · 10-16-2009, 06:11 PM

Randy, first off, I agree with those who think your rate is too low. Son, if you can't make money, then, as you said, you're better off doing something else. That mill requires maintenance, blades and fuel. I'd advise you to get your rate up and soon!

Secondly, you've probably sawed enough by now to have a good idea of how much time it's going to take you to do a job. Or saw up a log. I realize there are variables, but, you might want to just quote a price up front and give that a shot on a job or two and see how it works out. You can always adjust. Another option might be to just set a minimum charge. It's gotta cost you something just to start up the mill.

There's an old saying' "If you want fresh clean oats, this is the price. If you want oats that have been run through the horse, that's another product and another price!"

My 2 pennies worth.

The WoodButcher · 10-16-2009, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by JackLeg

Randy, first off, I agree with those who think your rate is too low. Son, if you can't make money, then, as you said, you're better off doing something else. That mill requires maintenance, blades and fuel. I'd advise you to get your rate up and soon!

Secondly, you've probably sawed enough by now to have a good idea of how much time it's going to take you to do a job. Or saw up a log. I realize there are variables, but, you might want to just quote a price up front and give that a shot on a job or two and see how it works out. You can always adjust. Another option might be to just set a minimum charge. It's gotta cost you something just to start up the mill.

There's an old saying' "If you want fresh clean oats, this is the price. If you want oats that have been run through the horse, that's another product and another price!"

My 2 pennies worth.

Sorry JackLeg, I overlooked your post. That is good advice I think. My mill isn't a high production mill but I can saw about 800 to 1000BF a day. . Just some ideas a few friends gave me. I will post it in this topic but as a new post. Look for it. Thanks again for trying to help me out.

The WoodButcher · 10-16-2009, 08:46 PM

Man I truely Thank ALL of you for your advice and helping me in this matter. Lots of great ideas. Heres one a friend asked me about today. How about a per log price? I'm looking at a 16" logs,... it's straight clear log,... I'll do that for $25.00 Now I'm looking at a 28" log slight crook in it and not clear at all. I'll do that one for $35.00,.... OOOPS I hit steel in that one the price just went to $35.00 + $25.00 for the blade. Next is a 12" crooked log that might yield 30 BF,... I'll mill that one for $20.00 as long as we don't hit any steel. I'm figuring all of these logs to be 10 to 12 footers. I kinda don't think this will work but it's a thought. Ya'll help a brother out. Man this thread is getting so long I keep getting lost???

Dragon · 10-16-2009, 08:47 PM

I recall a quote from a small business I was a regular customer of. "My prices are what they are because I offer quality goods and services. As for my competitors, they know what their stuff is worth too."

Seen a lot of good, sound advice in this thread. For my money, I prefer to do business where I'm treated like they want me to come back. If I feel the prices are too high, most of the time I'll ask if they can do better. If they cop an attitude, I leave. If they still treat me as if they want my business, then they've got it. I've gone to plenty of businesses over the years that cost me more than it would had I gone to their competitor. The difference was the atmosphere. I'll willingly pay more where I'm treated as a human being rather than a dollar figure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not paying $25 for an 8' 2X4 because you're a great guy and tell funny jokes, but I will give you my business over another if you're reasonably close and act like you appreciate me coming in.

Don't cut-rate your work because someone carps about the cost. In this day of strained incomes and struggling economy, nearly everyone is looking for a better deal. It's one thing to cut someone a little slack. It's quite another to be closed tomorrow because you ain't got enough income to pay the bills and eat too.

The WoodButcher · 10-16-2009, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Gotcha6

I can sympathize with your situation. Since the downturn my boss has had to take whatever work he can find & we do it gladly. There are still unscrupulous customers that want more than they pay for. My boss has taken on a policy to 'train our customers'. We don't do anything for our customers anymore without a quoted price to them up front and an emailed confirmation followed by a written Change Order. We've spent many years bending over backwards to please customers only to get shafted. I can play give & take with the best of them but when it's all give I quit playing. The guy that said he got his logs cut cheaper somewhere else probably couldn't go back there because they either ran him off or ran themselves out of business.
You need to tell people that you charge little enough that they will want to come back and as much as it takes to be there when they do. That's the essence of pricing.

"tell people that you charge little enough that they will want to come back and as much as it takes to be there when they do. That's the essence of pricing"

Amen to that Gotcha6. The guy just called me and wants to come by tomorrow and mill his last 4 logs. I told him I'd do it for $100 bucks and thats as good as it's gonna get. He said he's fine with that. I think it's a little high, but maybe he realizes he is on his last leg here. When I answered the phone, he said man you sound ****ed, I said no, just been a hard day. He said why is that? I said well I just had a guy leave here that tried to do me the same way you did me yesterday and I'm sick of that crap and it's not happening anymore. I own all of my equipment and I'll let it sit idle from now on before I start working my butt off just to be a nice guy. He asked if I needed anything hauled off or anything he could help me with. I do. But I wasn't about to tell him that, if I don't ask for no favors, I won't owe any favors. You have all been much help to me and I thank each and every one of you very much. If you come up with any other thoughts for me please,... POST'm.