Time Clock Coming soon. - Page 3

Time Clock Coming soon. · 10-14-2009, 10:53 AM

Hi All, I seem to run into the same problem over and over again. Almost every customer that comes to pick up there lumber, they try to beat me down on the time. I do not ride the clock, but,.... I have no way of proving it. I am going to buy a regular old time clock and cards in hopes of being able to show the customer. What I'm thinking is,... when the customer gets here writing him a ticket with what logs he brought, how many of each and have them sign it. Then, go over and start my forklift and from there walk over to the time clock and clock in. Then it's on. Anytime a drive in customer pulls up I can punch out to talk to them and back in when I'm done with him. I would do the same at break time and lunch time. Then when the customer comes for their lumber have the ticket all added up for them and when they buck on the time just show them the time card. That is as honest as I know how to be. But if they think I am a crook or a clock rider then they will know that from then on and have the option to find someone else to mill the logs. I just gave a guy my bill, and he was here the whole time but wanted to argue the time. I think this will put an end to that. One of the last things this guy said to me before he left was,... the last guy that I used didn't charge me that much. I ended up knocking 4 whole hours off his bill purely out of the goodness of my heart. And then he said that.That set me on fire. He acted like a best friend untill he got the bill. I still have 4 of his logs and he's gonna come back this weekend to help mill them. I think I'm gonna tell him, I've given it much thought and I think it would be best if we just loaded his logs up on his trailer and he can haul them to that guy that does it so much cheaper. I can go broke sitting on the couch. I'm tired of being the nice guy that takes a beating by every customer that comes along. I bought my mill as a hobby and I think I'm gonna take it back there. If ya gotta count minutes you can't afford me. The truth is the truth and I'm tired of bowing down to these tight wad folks that want everything for free. I think I pass along some really good deals but I'm starting to take a beating because of it. Do You all think the time clock will help? Any other ideas would be great.

Gotcha6 · 10-14-2009, 09:22 PM

I can sympathize with your situation. Since the downturn my boss has had to take whatever work he can find & we do it gladly. There are still unscrupulous customers that want more than they pay for. My boss has taken on a policy to 'train our customers'. We don't do anything for our customers anymore without a quoted price to them up front and an emailed confirmation followed by a written Change Order. We've spent many years bending over backwards to please customers only to get shafted. I can play give & take with the best of them but when it's all give I quit playing. The guy that said he got his logs cut cheaper somewhere else probably couldn't go back there because they either ran him off or ran themselves out of business.
You need to tell people that you charge little enough that they will want to come back and as much as it takes to be there when they do. That's the essence of pricing.

mkepke · 10-15-2009, 09:45 AM

Randy - are your customers getting an estimate or quote before you start cutting their logs ?

-Mark

truckjohn · 10-15-2009, 02:15 PM

I think part of the problem is for most folks... It is pretty hard for them to estimate how much Time it will take you -- so they have no idea how to figure out how much the job would cost... They think it will run $300.00 and it actually runs them $800.00.... and they didn't plan to have that much money on hand...

I am having this EXACT same trouble trying to figure out how much Rosewood to send to a guy out in California for Resawing into thin stock... He only wants to quote his HOURLY rate... but I only have so much money to spend on this... So I REALLY need to know ... How many boards do I need to send to be within my budget?

You may find that a pricing structure that is based on a "Shop Fee" + "Log Charge" + "Per Slice Charge" + "Blade charge" ends up being more popular with Customers... even though they end up paying MORE in the end....

The reason this sort of thing ends up being more popular is that the customer can estimate and budget and plan about the right # of logs to bring.... rather than ... Well, I have $300 for Cutting... and He said he averaged 1 log/hour... so that gives me 6 logs... but he says sometimes things go faster... so I will take 8 logs...

Then... things go their Usual time and he is on the hook for $400.00.... but he only HAS $300.00... so he has to argue your price down to $300.00 somehow....

Then have another quote structure for "Special Jobs".... when folks want you to do something strange and time consuming....

Good luck with your quest.

Thanks

John

Travis Porter · 10-15-2009, 03:05 PM

I think DaveD's are right on. I also am with Scott on giving an estimate that will be plus/minus X percent up front. Make them sign it.

Even so, you are still going to have plenty that are going to try to work you over. I guess the guy you had over for dinner figured you owed him a discount because he ate your food......

The WoodButcher · 10-15-2009, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by mshel

Randy,

While I don't know diddly about sawing lumber, one thing I do know is you need to figure what it is costing you to run the mill. That includes blades, gas, your time, etc. If $45 per hour will cover all that, then you are good to go. But don't forget "profit". Unless you are in this for fun, you need to have something to put in your pocket when everything else is paid for. Also, what happens if you wreck a blade while cutting the logs? I have never had lumber milled exclusively for me but I do know a couple of folks who do sawing and they will tell you; If I hit metal, you buy the blade. Anyway, it's your business and I only wanted to throw out my two cents.
Good Luck

Mike

PS Ditch the time clock idea.

Oh yes Mike, I have signs all over the place stating that steel in your logs cost you $25.00 blade fees, NO EXCEPTIONS, NO EXCUSSES. Also I feel as though I have my prices set so that I can be happy with what I get per hour and so should the customer. I am lower than anyone else I have ever talked to in this area. It just gets old having every customer trying to beat me down in the end of the deal. We made a deal and I like to stick to it. It doesn't change because we started liking each other in the process. But that seems to be how some folks think,... If I can make the sawyer like me,... he'll give me a break on my job. They have read the script wrong.

CarvedTones · 10-15-2009, 03:49 PM

This is hard to do on the internet, because I could be taken the wrong way. I am absolutely not implying that you do anything other than try to do an honest job and give your customers a good deal. But I will give you a few reasons I would prefer not to pay an hourly rate for this sort of thing. Some of these have been mentioned previously, but I will ad my $.02 anyway...

I worry about the unknown cost and I pretty much assume it will be more. I can't remember ever having someone make a non binding estimate about how long something would take when it was charged by time and then getting billed for less time. I have certainly been billed more than estimated. After a while you start to become a little suspicous (again, I am not implying you do anything to warrant that, it's just human nature). I begin to feel like I am shopping at a store where all the price tags say "you will be charged at least x dollars" but you don't know what they actually will cost until you get to the register.

I am an hourly paid employee. I have days where I get a lot done and other days things just seem to go wrong. It's all paid by one employer, so they can look at the big picture of what I produce over time and not worry about whether or not they are getting good value on a day to day basis. If something is bugging me; be it bad personal news or that leftover burrito I didn't refrigate promptly enough - I will not be as productive. Long term employers have to put up with that. But is it fair to charge two people different amounts for the same amount of work because of that? Ideally, you would want to average that in over the long haul and charge them both the same.

A related thing is that I really don't like is (once more I want to make sure you understand I am not implying that you do this, but letting you know a perception to avoid) when a service provider makes his problems my problems. If there was a cost over run because the provider had equipment failure or got poor performance out of a piece of equipment, I don't feel very good about paying that. I got rather upset at a tree company over that once. They had two guys doing the sawing and one guy was having trouble with his saw. The other guy stopped sawing also and they took turns wearing themselves out trying to crank the bad saw, messing with the carb/choke/filters/etc and trying again for almost an hour and then gave up and finished the job with the working saw. They charged their full rate for the full duration and it took longer than estimated (no surprise, since work was interrrupted and then proceeded at lower efficiency). The second guy did not just stand around, he started helping to haul and chip the limbs for the other guy, but it seemed to me they adjusted for his presence by doing that slower - they couldn't do it faster as they no longer had two saws working to feed the limbs.

I will close with the disclaimer again. I don't mean to imnply that you do any of these things. I almost didn't post this because I imagine you may feel a little defensive about charging for time. But keep in mind that some of the people who seem to be trying to take advantage of you are worried about being taken advantage of. It is so much easier when someone quotes a price and stands by it.

Kyle · 10-15-2009, 05:07 PM

Hey Randy,

I state an estimate up front and when the bill comes in (usually lower than I quoted, not intentional) If there is a customer that starts complaining.. VERY RARELY. then I start the itemization in terms labor, metal, and bf. The things that clients usually don't understand are the hidden costs like equipment, maintenance, labor, taxes and other expenses including fuel.

Metal costs 25.00 no exceptions, after one blade I let the customer make the decision regarding whether or not they want to continue sawing that log.

I do not charge a customer for downtime related to maintenance and or lunch or any other incidentals. My time is mine, and time in the log is paid for by them.

I find an hourly rate for very large or crooked logs is fair and a bf rate for clean logs is fair.

If even after all of that there is always the possibility of the customer buying their own sawmill and associated equipment(start at around 20,000) to have "cheap" lumber.

I always tell people... Just because the log was "free" doesn't mean the means to make it flat and square is free.

CarvedTones · 10-15-2009, 05:59 PM

One follow up on my post just to be clear - I may be thrifty/cheap, but I do realize that I have to pay what it costs for most things. I dislike not being given a fairly firm price. For example, when I painted my house I got a few estimates. I rejected all that were not job bids (or that I did not consider true job bids because of builtin easy overruns). I didn't take the cheapest job bid (largely due to my wife checking references). An interesting thing to note is that if the painters who bid based on time had done it as quickly as the people I went with, they actually would have been cheaper. Customers are willing to pay for piece of mind. Anyway, my preference for pricing of a job or by the produced product is not based on trying to save money.

Jeff Mills · 10-15-2009, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by The WoodButcher

Oh yes Mike, I have signs all over the place stating that steel in your logs cost you $25.00 blade fees, NO EXCEPTIONS, NO EXCUSSES. Also I feel as though I have my prices set so that I can be happy with what I get per hour and so should the customer. I am lower than anyone else I have ever talked to in this area. It just gets old having every customer trying to beat me down in the end of the deal. We made a deal and I like to stick to it. It doesn't change because we started liking each other in the process. But that seems to be how some folks think,... If I can make the sawyer like me,... he'll give me a break on my job. They have read the script wrong.

It's good to be good, but that does not mean good is to be taken advantage of. It's a two way street my friend.

Kyle · 10-15-2009, 11:12 PM

I remember a story the Slaters told me at their Winston recycling center. He recycles concrete, tub grinds mulch and saw wood in the winter time. He graduated from NC State in Forestry and knows a lot about wood.

He had a customer that wanted a nice walnut slab that he had sawn and he established a very fair price for it and the guy kept negotiating what he wanted to sell for it..The fellow kept asking less than he wanted and he said you can buy it for what I want to sell it for or I put in the tub grinder.. apparently the guy didn't believe him so he walked it to the grinder and threw it in.. mulch.

The guy never negotiated with him again about something he had to sell that he wanted.

Those guys are wild..

Dudelive · 10-15-2009, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kyle

I remember a story the Slaters told me at their Winston recycling center. He recycles concrete, tub grinds mulch and saw wood in the winter time. He graduated from NC State in Forestry and knows a lot about wood.

He had a customer that wanted a nice walnut slab that he had sawn and he established a very fair price for it and the guy kept negotiating what he wanted to sell for it..The fellow kept asking less than he wanted and he said you can buy it for what I want to sell it for or I put in the tub grinder.. apparently the guy didn't believe him so he walked it to the grinder and threw it in.. mulch.

The guy never negotiated with him again about something he had to sell that he wanted.

Those guys are wild..

That is a very good way of getting your point across. While I prefer to give a price (total + in your case blade due to their metal) let the price you give them in the beginning be more than the final price. If they get an estimate for more than the final price comes out to be then they can not complain at all. After all the logs they left are now your property due to your labor and if you are fair they will not argue. Give a price up front and then they can not argue at all then if it comes out cheaper (which it will) then you are the hero.

You are the one who knows your job NOT the customer with that being true then that makes you in charge at all times since it is your business and this ain't the bargain shop. Usually listening to the customer till they are through ranting and NOT interrupting till they are finished will allow you the final calming them down words as long as you are cool and calm.

Price upfront first + Getting more than they expected in the end = a good and happy customer.
If that DON'T work then they are not worth trying to make happy.

I don't have a sawmill to base these statements on but I have been in automotive repair for 41+ years and have seen alot of mad and angry people.

Good Luck

truckjohn · 10-16-2009, 12:32 AM

I guess here is what I was getting at....

Put yourself in the Customer's position.... They know absolutely nothing about your business..... but they know they have only so much $$$$ available.

Cheaper prices that the customer can't predict easily outright aren't necessarily better than more expensive prices that are clearly known ahead of time....

You would probably find that most folks out there would actually be more happy with a higher price that you "Estimate" up front than a Lower price that they can't predict. They can predict it... They can plan and budget.... They can coax the Wife to let loose some coin this month for the Project...

In the case of me and the Resaw guy out in California... From my perspective... as a Customer -- I have no idea how much it will cost me if I ship out 4-boards to be resawed at $70.00/hr...

I have no idea how to budget for the job except to tell him "I will send a bunch of boards. Resaw 3-hours worth, then finish the board you are on and stop as close to this as you can.... Send the whole pile back to me wherever you end up."

Unfortunately, I will probably end up shipping either way too much wood out... or end up a bunch short... but I am scratching my head because I really have no idea how to plan it out....

Now... If he said $10.00 per slice + a $10.00 per board fee if the boards are within such and such size.... Would it end up more expensive? Probably so.... because he has his hourly rate figured in to these costs.... but for me... I know if I send 4 boards for 28 slices... I know I will need to write a check for $320.00 + shipping. I can squirrel that money away ahead of time and I make my budget.

Thanks

John

CarvedTones · 10-16-2009, 03:50 AM

Well put, John. That is pretty much what I was trying to say.

Kyle, negotiation is another issue relevant to either fixed price or hourly. I actually have a slight preference for non negotiable pricing, because you don't walk away wondering how much you left on the table when a seller jumps on your first counter offer. OTOH, when I sell something on CL, I usually add a slight cushion so I can accept less.

Kyle · 10-16-2009, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by CarvedTones

Well put, John. That is pretty much what I was trying to say.

Kyle, negotiation is another issue relevant to either fixed price or hourly. I actually have a slight preference for non negotiable pricing, because you don't walk away wondering how much you left on the table when a seller jumps on your first counter offer. OTOH, when I sell something on CL, I usually add a slight cushion so I can accept less.

I generally give good estimates but there are too many variables with logs..Like I said metal, crooked logs, size and species, age of the log all affect volume and quality. If you need a comparison regarding how much "you saved" .45/bf for a walnut log you had sawed yourself is a lot cheaper than 3.25 a bf kiln dried.

Its all in how you look at the data I guess.

DaveD · 10-16-2009, 11:47 AM

Why the time clock won't work with jerks............

He comes to your place and you do the time clock thing and while he is there you get interrupted 5 times and have to 'clock' it.

In the end the jerk is going to want you to take at least 10 minutes off the bill because you had to make at least 5 trips (not counting the start/end trips) and he 'knows' that it took you 'at least' one minute to walk from the work to the time clock and another minute back.

Plus I'm sure if you walk away from the mill you shut it down so no one gets hurt while its unattended.
Lets see 1 minute cycle up and 1 minute cycle down. That's another 10 minutes off.

Finally, if he didn't trust you without the time clock he sure not going to trust you when he is not there to do the time clock thing accurately.

Considering you probably don't want these jerks to ever come back I'd just tell them they aren't geting their boards till they pay you in cash (what you asked for) and to go p*ss up a rope.

That brings up another thought. I sure wouldn't take checks either.

How hard/easy would it be for you to guess at the cost and make it a fixed price for the particular load? Is it so variable that that isn't viable? Maybe time a few logs (different diameters and species) to get to a per cut price. Then some kind of percentage uplift if you are doing thicker beams/logs because they are harder to handle.

ie:
x$ to cut (per cut) boards out of a 12" or smaller log that is 8' long
x$ + y% uplift for logs 13" to 18" that is 8' long
etc.
+
x% uplift (based on length) for anything over 8'
Y% uplift based on species type for the ones that wear out the blade/equipment faster or take longer to cut through.

Or maybe just pack a sidearm and have a big sign that says

THE PRICE IS WHAT IT IS

NO NEGOTIATING

CASH ONLY

CHISELERS/CHEAPSKATES STAY AWAY.