Time Clock Coming soon. - Page 2

Time Clock Coming soon. · 10-14-2009, 10:53 AM

Hi All, I seem to run into the same problem over and over again. Almost every customer that comes to pick up there lumber, they try to beat me down on the time. I do not ride the clock, but,.... I have no way of proving it. I am going to buy a regular old time clock and cards in hopes of being able to show the customer. What I'm thinking is,... when the customer gets here writing him a ticket with what logs he brought, how many of each and have them sign it. Then, go over and start my forklift and from there walk over to the time clock and clock in. Then it's on. Anytime a drive in customer pulls up I can punch out to talk to them and back in when I'm done with him. I would do the same at break time and lunch time. Then when the customer comes for their lumber have the ticket all added up for them and when they buck on the time just show them the time card. That is as honest as I know how to be. But if they think I am a crook or a clock rider then they will know that from then on and have the option to find someone else to mill the logs. I just gave a guy my bill, and he was here the whole time but wanted to argue the time. I think this will put an end to that. One of the last things this guy said to me before he left was,... the last guy that I used didn't charge me that much. I ended up knocking 4 whole hours off his bill purely out of the goodness of my heart. And then he said that.That set me on fire. He acted like a best friend untill he got the bill. I still have 4 of his logs and he's gonna come back this weekend to help mill them. I think I'm gonna tell him, I've given it much thought and I think it would be best if we just loaded his logs up on his trailer and he can haul them to that guy that does it so much cheaper. I can go broke sitting on the couch. I'm tired of being the nice guy that takes a beating by every customer that comes along. I bought my mill as a hobby and I think I'm gonna take it back there. If ya gotta count minutes you can't afford me. The truth is the truth and I'm tired of bowing down to these tight wad folks that want everything for free. I think I pass along some really good deals but I'm starting to take a beating because of it. Do You all think the time clock will help? Any other ideas would be great.

The WoodButcher · 10-14-2009, 12:28 PM

This guy really played me I think. I even invited him into my house for super and everything. He was real friendly untill the bill and then he got rather nasty and made me wish I was packing my heat. He satrted telling me about how bad he was and the like. I told him I knew some bad Ol' dudes one time, they just weren't as bad as the 45 round that took them out.

And not to sound too mean,.... I'll just say that before I wear a butt whoopin in my own front yard, somebody other than me is going to need a Doctor at the very least and I might add that doctor needs to be located very nearby.

Mike Davis · 10-14-2009, 01:25 PM

Randy,

I would make a minimum price per log up front.

If you know that it takes two hours to unload, cut, stack, and load say a 10 inch log then you know that will be $90. For most standaed lumber cutting you should know pretty close what a log will take to cut.

Make a chart with the charges and tell them up front what the minimum will be. If you hit a nail and ruin a blade that is on top of the other charges.

I always like to know what something is going to cost me before I agree to let somebody do the work. I think you will be much happier and your customers will be more agreeable if you spend a little time figuring out what things are going to be ahead of time and making everything clear before you ever unload a log from their trailer.

If you don't want to do the math get some accountant type to work out a spread sheet for you.

Bigdog72 · 10-14-2009, 02:20 PM

A time clock would be very helpful but I think you need an information sheet that describes your services including unloading, loading, etc and this should be signed by the customer prior to starting the work. Then, there can be no misunderstanding about what you are charging for. If they won't sign, don't unload!!!

scsmith42 · 10-14-2009, 02:35 PM

Randy,

Generally speaking I'd rather spend more time with a customer up front setting the proper expectations, and risk losing him to someone else, versus winging it and then going through what you've experienced. I've had a number of people approach me about buying rough sawn pine lumber, thinking that it was cheaper by the bd ft than what they could buy a 2 x 4 for at the local BORG. WRONG!

At $45.00 per hour you are definitely not overcharging the customer.

You might want to determine what some average prices per bd ft are, based upon 8" logs on one end of the scale and 20" logs (or whatever) on the other end. That way you can tell a customer that your prices are $45.00 per hour, from the time that you fire up the first piece of equipment to the time that you shut down the last piece of equipment, and that typically they will pay XX per bd ft for their sawn lumber from an 8" log, YY per bd ft if they provide 14" logs, and ZZ per bd ft from 20" logs, etc. Do everything possible to establish realistic expectations, and remember the old adage - "under-promise and over-deliver".

Scott

The WoodButcher · 10-14-2009, 02:56 PM

Ok, I have a 3 part ticket book. Would it be ok to,.... when the customer comes in make a ticket for what he is droping off, what he wants it sawn into and an aproximate time it will take. Making note that this may vary a little either way. Then give the customer the bottom ticket, kinda like a quote. And also a way of having all of his info for myself. Then when I put in some hours in, add it to the ticket, when I'm done, add it all up and it is what it is?? He leaves with the second ticket as a recipiet and I have the original copy for my records?? If they don't like the quote then don't leave the logs.

I am by no means a business man. However,.. I know what it takes to cause me to get out there in the elements and bust my butt on my little manual mill. The way I see it is either they want them milled or they wanna talk crap about it. This guy left here with everybit of $600 to $700 bucks of fine red oak lumber that he will never find any cheaper than the $315.00 he paid for it. I recon it's time to man up and stop trying to make everybody happy.

nelsone · 10-14-2009, 02:56 PM

Randy, why don't you figure what it takes to set up the mill for any given job and establish a min price then go the BF route?

Jeff Mills · 10-14-2009, 02:59 PM

Stick the logs when they pull up, tally the total BF and quote them a estimate based on total BF. Get agreement before you unload the logs. No agreement send them packing with their logs.

The WoodButcher · 10-14-2009, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by scsmith42

Randy,

Generally speaking I'd rather spend more time with a customer up front setting the proper expectations, and risk losing him to someone else, versus winging it and then going through what you've experienced. I've had a number of people approach me about buying rough sawn pine lumber, thinking that it was cheaper by the bd ft than what they could buy a 2 x 4 for at the local BORG. WRONG!

At $45.00 per hour you are definitely not overcharging the customer.

You might want to determine what some average prices per bd ft are, based upon 8" logs on one end of the scale and 20" logs (or whatever) on the other end. That way you can tell a customer that your prices are $45.00 per hour, from the time that you fire up the first piece of equipment to the time that you shut down the last piece of equipment, and that typically they will pay XX per bd ft for their sawn lumber from an 8" log, YY per bd ft if they provide 14" logs, and ZZ per bd ft from 20" logs, etc. Do everything possible to establish realistic expectations, and remember the old adage - "under-promise and over-deliver".

Scott

Hey Scott, didn't see your post untill I posted my last one. My mill is all manual, I can mill a log of lets say 26"X 12' into just about anything in an hour including loading and rolling. I don't think thats too bad for a manual mill myself. I would really like some input on this though. Is that way too long? and if so should I lower my rates? I really do not want to be sticking it to my customers. I want us both to be happy at the end of the day. I'm starting to think I might be better off just sawing lumber and selling it at a BF price. And NOT sawing for other people anymore.

The WoodButcher · 10-14-2009, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas Robinson

If you have not cut the logs yet, let them take them. Of course they will have to load the logs themselves! If they balk then offer to help with the clear understanding that you will charge them $90/hour loading fee! If the wood has been cut then they cannot leave with the wood without paying the full boat.

Maybe you should have one of those signs: "Log cutting: $50/hour, if you watch $55/hour, if you help $65/hour, if you want the wood reloaded without being cut: $90/hour, and if you try to haggle on the price $100/hour. All work starts the moment I start unloading your logs."

I've read this about 3 times and I like it. All I would add is: No Pun Intended. or some other unmistakable term that would let them know this was no joke.

The WoodButcher · 10-14-2009, 03:35 PM

Just trying to think things thru and I think what happens,.... is when they do treat me like an idiot, it hurts my feelings. Hurting my feelings, in turn really brings my temper to the boiling point. I might be being to open here but I ain't scared Just trying to honest. But I have got a NEWS FLASH for the very next customer I am blessed enough to get. We Will working on MY Terms. I'm glad my temper isn't what it used to be. This is harder than I thought it was gonna be.

mikeacg · 10-14-2009, 03:44 PM

When I bought my little sawmill a few years back, I promised myself not to get talked into cutting for anyone buy myself. After reading all this, I am so glad I stuck to my promise!

I like the 3-part ticket book idea. At least they can't say they didn't know it was going to cost so much and you won't forget what you told them either.

Looks like a Norwood, Randy! I have the small one (24" max. w/11 hp. Honda) and it has been a workhorse. When the truck showed up to deliver it, I wondered how I was going to get it off. Turns out it was a skid with a pile of boxes and I had to build the thing myself. Good part of that is I know every part of the machine now.

DaveD · 10-14-2009, 04:06 PM

IMHO...

The people that want to argue price will always find something to argue about.

Forget the time clock. If they want to argue they will argue about when you really punched in/out. Especially if they are not there to watch.

Forget the board foot cost for cutting. They will argue you to death about how you calculated each board. Picture a board 8'-5" long, 4-1/4" on one end and 5-3/4" on the other end. Now picture trying to argue about 20 boards.

Keep track of the next x number of logs you cut and how long it took. Use that info to figure a per log price. Price is then set up front when logs are brought on site.

Could be a simple spreadsheet. Log diameter, log length, rough cut board thickness wanted.

If the clients are more agrivating then its worth then start raising your prices. Consider different prices for large/small quantities of logs. Get more for whichever is more of a PITA.

Consider having a 1 or 2 hour minimum. Consider billing in 15 minute increments.

Consider a storage fee for the boards once you cut them and notify the person to come get them. Something like x$/day after they sit there for a week or so.

And, lastly, if its not fun for you any more then just mill your own logs and sell the boards for how ever much you want.

When that guy comes back for his other logs just tell him the mill is down for repairs and you don't have a clue when it will be fixed.

Oh yeah, your current price is probably too low. Have you ever figured out your maintenance/upkeep cost for the mill? Do you scan each log for imbedded metal? That's chargable time too.

The WoodButcher · 10-14-2009, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by mikeacg

When I bought my little sawmill a few years back, I promised myself not to get talked into cutting for anyone buy myself. After reading all this, I am so glad I stuck to my promise!

I like the 3-part ticket book idea. At least they can't say they didn't know it was going to cost so much and you won't forget what you told them either.

Looks like a Norwood, Randy! I have the small one (24" max. w/11 hp. Honda) and it has been a workhorse. When the truck showed up to deliver it, I wondered how I was going to get it off. Turns out it was a skid with a pile of boxes and I had to build the thing myself. Good part of that is I know every part of the machine now.

Amen Brother, mine was 27 boxes and there is no part of my mill I don't know well. I have the 23HP and it's a great little mill. Took right at 18 hours to build. But like I said if something isn't right,.... I know exactly where to look, there isn't a whole lot of time spent on figuring out whats wrong. It's a great hobby but I'm thinking of leaving it there.

The WoodButcher · 10-14-2009, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by DaveD

IMHO...

The people that want to argue price will always find something to argue about.

Forget the time clock. If they want to argue they will argue about when you really punched in/out. Especially if they are not there to watch.

Forget the board foot cost for cutting. They will argue you to death about how you calculated each board. Picture a board 8'-5" long, 4-1/4" on one end and 5-3/4" on the other end. Now picture trying to argue about 20 boards.

Keep track of the next x number of logs you cut and how long it took. Use that info to figure a per log price. Price is then set up front when logs are brought on site.

Could be a simple spreadsheet. Log diameter, log length, rough cut board thickness wanted.

If the clients are more agrivating then its worth then start raising your prices. Consider different prices for large/small quantities of logs. Get more for whichever is more of a PITA.

Consider having a 1 or 2 hour minimum. Consider billing in 15 minute increments.

Consider a storage fee for the boards once you cut them and notify the person to come get them. Something like x$/day after they sit there for a week or so.

And, lastly, if its not fun for you any more then just mill your own logs and sell the boards for how ever much you want.

When that guy comes back for his other logs just tell him the mill is down for repairs and you don't have a clue when it will be fixed.

Oh yeah, your current price is probably too low. Have you ever figured out your maintenance/upkeep cost for the mill? Do you scan each log for imbedded metal? That's chargable time too.

Wow DaveD, You covered it all it one post. You mind if I print this out and use as a guidline? I really hope not because I am I do have a 2 hour min. but I don't really inforce it. But these folks have licked all the red off of my candy and it's time I put the nice guy in the closet for a spell and start taking care of business. I don't know anything about spreadsheets but I think I need something like that to go by. Thank you all for all your help and ideas,please keep this going it is helping me as far as seeing it thru many different eyes. Again Thanks

mshel · 10-14-2009, 08:20 PM

Randy,

While I don't know diddly about sawing lumber, one thing I do know is you need to figure what it is costing you to run the mill. That includes blades, gas, your time, etc. If $45 per hour will cover all that, then you are good to go. But don't forget "profit". Unless you are in this for fun, you need to have something to put in your pocket when everything else is paid for. Also, what happens if you wreck a blade while cutting the logs? I have never had lumber milled exclusively for me but I do know a couple of folks who do sawing and they will tell you; If I hit metal, you buy the blade. Anyway, it's your business and I only wanted to throw out my two cents.
Good Luck

Mike

PS Ditch the time clock idea.