Should Cedar wood be stained, treated or finished? For a Cedar Chest!

[AndyBarnhart]

Originally Posted by DaveO

Tung Oil is a good wood colorant, but a poor wood protector/finish.

With all due respect, I completely disagree. The slight amber cast may be an issue on some light woods (though I like it), but on something like cedar it would be hard to detect. It is an excellent protector; there are even some high end deck sealants with tung oil as the primary ingredient. It event protects against alcohol (somehow this solvent ends up on furniture a lot ). It is more of a satin than gloss, so if that's what you are after you won't be as happy with it (though I have seen a top coat of bees wax and tung buffed out pretty shiny). I use pure tung oil, not the toxic stew that a lot of companies sell as a tung oil finish. Pure does dry slower and your shop will smell like a lot of the time, but it is a safe smell.

[Nativespec]

I built one and left in unfinished on the inside and used a wipe on poly on the outside. I had a problem with the top curling up (mine is a bench type and the top is 3/4") and I wish I had finished both sides of the top.

Eastern cedar is a juniper and part of the cypress family and is not that similar to western cedar.

I cannot remember what the tree is called up in the mountains, but the leaves are more like a juniper and not like a pine or spruce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_%28disambiguation%29

David

[Nativespec]

The big ones in the mountains are hemlocks.

David

[MrAudio815]

[quote=rbdoby;147478]

Originally Posted by MrAudio815

Ok you said to use Tung oil on the outside and then you told me not to stain it? What's the difference between applying tung oil to the outside and staining?


To me staining means adding a color to the wood before applying a top coat. Usually you don't need to add color to ERC. You do need to protect the wood with a top coat like tung oil, Danish oil, poly, etc.

Rick Doby

oh Duh, I get it now, Man I feel Dumb!

So what about using Boiled linseed oil mixed with Minereal spirits and applying it to the outside of the Cedar Chest?

Oh and update.... I told the lady that it would cost closer to $400 dollars for her cedar chest and she wrote back and asked if I could fix the old one. I'm not really sure how to fix a piece of crap! I mean it has oak veneer on the outside and Cedar veneer on the inside. I would have to be one lucky man to get an exact match on the first order of veneer. I wrote back and sort of told her YES and NO. Yes I can and it will look like crap and NO if you want it to look the same.
And I also figured out what I have spent so far on the wood and using her old lock and hinges and told her it would cost $275 for a 42" wide X22" tall X20" deep. I have to use the cedar, I have no use for it at the time and would rather get something than get stuck with wood I don't need at the time. Well I still look forward to hearing from you!


Matthew
Custom Home Audio
M&R Audio
Not Custom Home Cedar Chest!!!

[MrAudio815]

Originally Posted by DaveO

Not a Cedar chest per se, but it is a Cedar box and the concept is very close

I finished the outside of the box with Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish, and left the inside natural and unfinished. Tung Oil is a good wood colorant, but a poor wood protector/finish. Danish Oil will give you the same effect as the Waterlox, but less protection. I have found that a few projects I have finished with Danish Oil have really dulled over time.
It is never a good idea to use any sort of oil based finish on the inside of any enclosed space. It will take forever for the oil to gas-off and anything you put in there will smell like it. If I finish the inside or any box, chest or cabinet I use shellac.
I would consider veneering the MDF with Cedar, to keep the look consistent. Or just glue up a solid Cedar bottom.
Dave

Dave that sure is one gorgeous Box right there! Great Job...


Sincerely,

Matthew
Custom Home Audio
M&R Audio

Update on cedar chest next page!

[AndyBarnhart]

I will tell you what I would do, but you are at a decision point now where it is more your decision about whether this might lead to other work you want or whatever. But my gut leads me toward a couple of blunt 3 word phrases - "cut your losses" and "run, don't walk". Spirit BLO mix is pretty similar to "Danish Oil" and "Tung Oil Finish". I quote those because as previously mentioned, there may be little or no Tung oil in the finish and I am pretty sure no Danes were harmed in making "Danish Oil".
I have had good success with posting wood to trade for other wood on CL in the past, so that is one avenue to try if you get stuck with it. I usually felt I got a better deal that way than trying to compete for dollars.

[Mike Davis]

Using her old hardware and the new cedar is probably the best compromise.

try to let her see that her daughter will have a quality heirloom to hand down through the family which is much better than a repaired chest that may not last through college.

[DaveO]

Originally Posted by AndyBarnhart

With all due respect, I completely disagree. The slight amber cast may be an issue on some light woods (though I like it), but on something like cedar it would be hard to detect. It is an excellent protector; there are even some high end deck sealants with tung oil as the primary ingredient. It event protects against alcohol (somehow this solvent ends up on furniture a lot ). It is more of a satin than gloss, so if that's what you are after you won't be as happy with it (though I have seen a top coat of bees wax and tung buffed out pretty shiny). I use pure tung oil, not the toxic stew that a lot of companies sell as a tung oil finish. Pure does dry slower and your shop will smell like a lot of the time, but it is a safe smell.

Hikin' up pants, and rollin' up sleeves....
Disagreement is good, it's the basis for good discussion. Maybe I should have prefaced my comment with "compared to other finishes"
To quote Mr. Howard Acheson, who IMO has forgot more about finishing than most know -

"However, they are better finishing products than pure tung oil.
Pure tung oil has little or no water or watervapor resistance nor does it have any abrasion resistance. It takes a long time to cure and requires many coats to provide any real long term appearence. You will have to renew it periodically to maintain its appearence."

"There are two "true" oils used in finishing. One is linseed oil which comes from flax seeds. The second is tung oil Which comes from a nut tree that originally grew in China. Both are called drying oils although neither really fully dries and becomes hard. The primary use of both is in manufacturing oil based finishes.
Real tung oil has acquired a cachet in the past twenty years that seems to elevate it to some type of magic potion. In fact, as a finish, it does not offer anything much different than linseed oil. In spite of the hype, is not significantly more water resistant than linseed oil--both are lousy--nor is it any more durable. Used alone both are fairly inferior "finishes". About the only difference is that tung oil is slightly less amber than linseed oil but it also is slightly less effective at "popping" the grain. By most measures, it is not significantly different from linseed oil."

Tung oil or BLO applied to almost any wood will enhance the color. It won't offer much protection, compared to other finishes. It does offer very good repair-ability. I guess the definition of a good protective finish should be based on what you need the protection from. For a turning or other object d' art a Tung oil finish and some wax is ideal..it feels great. But for a furniture piece or something that is going to be exposed to significantly more use, and is composed of larger pieces of wood that can benefit from moisture exchange mediation, I think that Tung oil is a poor choice as a finish, but it will enhance the wood's color and is a good choice as part of the finish schedule.
MTCW,
Dave

[sawduster]

[quote=MrAudio815;147494]

Originally Posted by rbdoby

And I also figured out what I have spent so far on the wood and using her old lock and hinges and told her it would cost $275 for a 42" wide X22" tall X20" deep. I have to use the cedar, I have no use for it at the time and would rather get something than get stuck with wood I don't need at the time. Well I still look forward to hearing from you!


Matthew
Custom Home Audio
M&R Audio
Not Custom Home Cedar Chest!!!

I hope things work out for you , but rest assure you will not be " stuck " with that Cedar if they don't
.....I've grown rather fond of Cedar lately

thanx for starting this thread and to all who responded .....it has some much appreciated advice for me

[MrAudio815]

Originally Posted by DaveO

Hikin' up pants, and rollin' up sleeves....

Originally Posted by DaveO

Disagreement is good, it's the basis for good discussion. Maybe I should have prefaced my comment with "compared to other finishes"
To quote Mr. Howard Acheson, who IMO has forgot more about finishing than most know -

"However, they are better finishing products than pure tung oil.
Pure tung oil has little or no water or watervapor resistance nor does it have any abrasion resistance. It takes a long time to cure and requires many coats to provide any real long term appearence. You will have to renew it periodically to maintain its appearence."

"There are two "true" oils used in finishing. One is linseed oil which comes from flax seeds. The second is tung oil Which comes from a nut tree that originally grew in China. Both are called drying oils although neither really fully dries and becomes hard. The primary use of both is in manufacturing oil based finishes.
Real tung oil has acquired a cachet in the past twenty years that seems to elevate it to some type of magic potion. In fact, as a finish, it does not offer anything much different than linseed oil. In spite of the hype, is not significantly more water resistant than linseed oil--both are lousy--nor is it any more durable. Used alone both are fairly inferior "finishes". About the only difference is that tung oil is slightly less amber than linseed oil but it also is slightly less effective at "popping" the grain. By most measures, it is not significantly different from linseed oil."

Tung oil or BLO applied to almost any wood will enhance the color. It won't offer much protection, compared to other finishes. It does offer very good repair-ability. I guess the definition of a good protective finish should be based on what you need the protection from. For a turning or other object d' art a Tung oil finish and some wax is ideal..it feels great. But for a furniture piece or something that is going to be exposed to significantly more use, and is composed of larger pieces of wood that can benefit from moisture exchange mediation, I think that Tung oil is a poor choice as a finish, but it will enhance the wood's color and is a good choice as part of the finish schedule.
MTCW,
Dave

Dave you have enlightened me and have confused me all at the same time . I was planning on using BLO mixed with mineral spirits and applying it to the outside of the Cedar chest, but now after reading what you wrote I am not sure it will with stand abuse like you were saying. You said the Tung is not a good choice, but you didn't say what would be a good choice. Anyway, what would be a good finish to put over top of BLO + MS?
The lady wants it to be similar to this Cedar chest in color
Please let me know what I might need to make it that color.
I am dying here... He he he...


UPDATES everyone.... The lady said she would pay $275 for the cedar chest... Not the best, but not to bad either. I am planning on making it look like this Cedar Chest below in style, not color. The wood cost me $95 and the piano hinge will cost $20. I will be using the lock and side hinges like the ones on the picture from her old cedar chest. So $120 dollars roughly plus finish and glue and brads....And sell it for $275, not to bad I guess.... I am new at this mind you! :dontk now:
I have 8 boards at 3/4 x 7 1/4 x 96 = Roughly 36.8 board feet. I added up what I will need and it will be 29 board feet. So with the oh Crap factor I think I will have enough. What do you think? 42" long X 22" tall X 20" wide and no extra trimming of molding. Input....Anyone.....Anyone...Bueler????


Matthew
Custom Home Audio
M&R Audio

[Mike Davis]

All the old cedar chests I have seen were finished with amber or clear shellac. Maybe not the best finish but it seals the cedar oil in the wood.

You could do an oil coat let it dry at least a week, then a couple coats of shellac followed up with a final coat of poly. That would give you the depth and grain pop that looks so good, the water and oil vapor seal from shellac and the tough final protection from poly.

Most of the nicer chests I have seen are made with some hard tough decorative wood like walnut or maple and a thiner layer of cedar inside, not veneer but 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick. The frame and panel design will probably work but I have never seen a solid cedar frame and panel chest.

At this point I think you have to keep it simple but make it sturdy and beautiful in order to make the client happy, gain some experience and get a good recommendation for future work.

If you have room to store it, a little extra wood will help you with future projects. By having some wood on hand you have choices like maybe making the bottom from poplar or birch plywood. Making moldings or accent pieces. Maybe make the frame from maple and the panels from figured red cedar. When you have wood to choose from the possibilities are endless. When you have to go buy every stick you use then you are less adventurous with your design.

[MrAudio815]

Thanks for the tips. I do agree with having more wood, I just don't have the money at the time. I do have a 4'X8' 3/4 sheet of birch and was planning on useing it for the bottom, but it was $55 and dont want to add that to the chest. I think I will use MDF on the bottom covered with Cedar so from all sides it looks like cedar. Unless you flip it up side down, if not, then you'll never see it. See I do have a lot of wood to use... Only one problem... It's all MDF


Have fun, or try something else...


Sincerely,

Matthew & Rachel
Custom Home Audio
M&R Audio

[AndyBarnhart]

The experts don't all agree. Here's a little tidbit from Russ Fairfield:

Pure Tung Oil provides a hard and tough surface finish that is absolutely waterproof; impervious to dust, alcohol, acetone, fruit and vegetable acids; and it doesn't darken with age like Linseed and other vegetable oils. All of these benefits come at a price - pure Tung Oil takes forever to dry, it doesn't penetrate the wood surface very well, and it is expensive when compared to other drying oils. Tung Oil is a "reactive" finish, commonly called a "drying" oil, in that it will dry and harden when exposed to air.
Everyone asks me about Tung Oil, but nobody wants to use it because Tung Oil is not a fast finish. It takes a lot of time. But, it is a simple and forgiving finish, and when done properly, its beauty is unmatched. Sometimes we try too hard to avoid the slow and simple things in our modern high-tech lives.

Jeff Jewitt:

Tung oil is derived from the nuts of certain trees indigenous to Asia and other parts of the world. Tung oil is available in pure, unrefined form or heat-treated in a form called polymerized tung oil. The heat-treating process makes the oil a tad bit more durable and speeds up the dry rate. It also minimizes the tendency of tung oil to “frost” or dry to a whitish, matte appearance. It is a bit paler in color than linseed oil and has better moisture resistance than linseed oil.
Both linseed and tung oils are penetrating finishes – which means that they penetrate into the fibers of the wood and harden within the wood. These are the easiest finishes to apply – they are wiped on, allowed to penetrate and the excess wiped off with a rag. They are generally not built up to a surface film like varnish or lacquer because the film dries too soft.

I found a little by Dresdner also. He isn't as big on it, but mostly because it doesn't dry hard instantly. But I also found a quote from him saying no finish is completely water proof (he has a point; the MC will change over time no matter what you use). That was in answer to a question about cleaning something finished with tung oil using soap and water, which he said was fine.

It's biggest issue is durability, IMO. It will have to be re-applied on anything that gets a lot of handling every few years. I am really surprised at Acheson's first statement (lack of moisture resistance). I don't have to quote experts to know that isn't correct. I have plenty of first hand experience.

[DaveO]

Originally Posted by MrAudio815

Dave you have enlightened me and have confused me all at the same time . I was planning on using BLO mixed with mineral spirits and applying it to the outside of the Cedar chest, but now after reading what you wrote I am not sure it will with stand abuse like you were saying. You said the Tung is not a good choice, but you didn't say what would be a good choice. Anyway, what would be a good finish to put over top of BLO + MS?
The lady wants it to be similar to this Cedar chest in color
Please let me know what I might need to make it that color.
I am dying here... He he he..

Matthew
Custom Home Audio
M&R Audio

Actually I suggested Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish. But you could also do well with any other varnish, lacquer, polyurethane or even shellac. If you are using an oil based finish you will get the same coloring that the BLO will give you (BLO is the oil in oil based finishes).
Dave