Help with lumber grading

[TracyP]

Ok the internet is not as smart as woodworkers are. In searching for the best deal on lumber in my area I have ran across wood graded FAS 4/4 Ash-sap & btr rough. I understand 4/4, Fas, and of course rough. The terminology I do not understand is "Sap & Btr. Help me understand before I make a costly mistake.

[DaveO]

My guess would be Sapwood and Better. I don't think that is an official grading term. In Ash the sapwood is the whitest and is often desired over the brownish variable colored heart wood. Very similar to Hard Maple where the white sapwood is desired. And of course our own Sapwood (Roger) who is always desired

Dave

[TracyP]

Originally Posted by DaveO

My guess would be Sapwood and Better. I don't think that is an official grading term. In Ash the sapwood is the whitest and is often desired over the brownish variable colored heart wood. Very similar to Hard Maple where the white sapwood is desired. And of course our own Sapwood (Roger) who is always desired

Dave

Thank you Dave, I am new here and trying to learn everything in as little time as possible, Yeah, Yeah I know you cannot learn it all at once but you and the other pros are helping. So do you think it would be a bad choice to buy lumber graded like this http://www.internetlumber.com/lumber...s/Ash-SuperPAk
TIA

Tracy

[walnutjerry]

Originally Posted by newtowood

Ok the internet is not as smart as woodworkers are. In searching for the best deal on lumber in my area I have ran across wood graded FAS 4/4 Ash-sap & btr rough. I understand 4/4, Fas, and of course rough. The terminology I do not understand is "Sap & Btr. Help me understand before I make a costly mistake.

It is strange you make that post at this particular time.

I just ordered 4/4 rgh FAS red oak-----------after unloading the truck and it had left, I noticed on the invoice it stated FAS and 1F. I did not think too much of it until I started carrying it into the shop one board at a time (993 bft). I really was not happy with what I was seeing as I unloaded. So................I came in and pulled up NHLA rule book. What it amounts to is if 1F were any less quality it would go to #1 common grade, if it had a better face it would be FAS. It seemed there was more 1F in the unit than FAS...............but I ordered and paid for FAS, not a mixture of FAS and 1F.

I called the company and told the clerk that took the order about my dissatisfaction, specifically the fact they did not send the grade I ordered and paid for. They offered to come pick it up if I could not use it or give me a discount on the material. I accepted the discount, simply because I did not want to carry that much lumber again. Now I have to wait 2 weeks for the refund-----------cheeeeeeeeese.

Point is---------be sure you make it clear the grade you want (which I thought I did at the quote request and later to confirm the order) and check the invoice and markings on the unit BEFORE unloading.

If you have not already done so--------go to the NHLA site and search their grade rules. They pretty much cover all aspects of the grading standards. They should ---------------they wrote the standards!!!!

Jerry

[jeff...]

Well that's the first time I seen SAP & BTR assigned to Ash. Dave is right on the money with this one. It means the board contains a certain amount sapwood specified as "desirable" for a particular grade.

Standard SAP & Better grades run like this

4/4 Select, F1F and FAS - Approx 80% or more sapwood - random width
4/4 #1 - Approx 70% ~ 80% Sapwood - random width
4/4 #2 - Approx 50% ~ 70% Sapwood - random width

First you would grade the board then calculate the sapwood contained within the board.

There are specialty SAP and better grades developed by the flooring industry that I am not acquainted with.

Thanks

[TracyP]

Originally Posted by walnutjerry

It is strange you make that post at this particular time.

I just ordered 4/4 rgh FAS red oak-----------after unloading the truck and it had left, I noticed on the invoice it stated FAS and 1F. I did not think too much of it until I started carrying it into the shop one board at a time (993 bft). I really was not happy with what I was seeing as I unloaded. So................I came in and pulled up NHLA rule book. What it amounts to is if 1F were any less quality it would go to #1 common grade, if it had a better face it would be FAS. It seemed there was more 1F in the unit than FAS...............but I ordered and paid for FAS, not a mixture of FAS and 1F.

I called the company and told the clerk that took the order about my dissatisfaction, specifically the fact they did not send the grade I ordered and paid for. They offered to come pick it up if I could not use it or give me a discount on the material. I accepted the discount, simply because I did not want to carry that much lumber again. Now I have to wait 2 weeks for the refund-----------cheeeeeeeeese.

Point is---------be sure you make it clear the grade you want (which I thought I did at the quote request and later to confirm the order) and check the invoice and markings on the unit BEFORE unloading.

If you have not already done so--------go to the NHLA site and search their grade rules. They pretty much cover all aspects of the grading standards. They should ---------------they wrote the standards!!!!

Jerry

Thank you Jerry, This helped me a lot. If possible I would like to meet you soon and see your shop as we are in the same town. If it would be possible to visit this weekend or another please send me a PM or email. Don't want to intrude on your privacy but I would really like to see an example of what an experienced woodworkers operation is like. Thank you for replying to a lot of the threads I have posted.

Tracy

[walnutjerry]

Tracy-------You are welcome to come see my shop, and I will even try to find an experienced woodworker to be here at the same time.

PM coming to you.

Jerry

[jeff...]

Originally Posted by newtowood

Thank you Dave, I am new here and trying to learn everything in as little time as possible, Yeah, Yeah I know you cannot learn it all at once but you and the other pros are helping. So do you think it would be a bad choice to buy lumber graded like this http://www.internetlumber.com/lumber...s/Ash-SuperPAk
TIA

Tracy

"Lengths are 8' and longer, widths from 4" to 12".All SuperPAKs ship truck freight."

Wondering how FAS could be anything less than 6" wide and 8' long? - I would call them and ask.

Thanks

[TracyP]

Originally Posted by jeff...

Well that's the first time I seen SAP & BTR assigned to Ash. Dave is right on the money with this one. It means the board contains a certain amount sapwood specified as "desirable" for a particular grade.

Standard SAP & Better grades run like this

4/4 Select, F1F and FAS - Approx 80% or more sapwood - random width
4/4 #1 - Approx 70% ~ 80% Sapwood - random width
4/4 #2 - Approx 50% ~ 70% Sapwood - random width

First you would grade the board then calculate the sapwood contained within the board.

There are specialty SAP and better grades developed by the flooring industry that I am not acquainted with.

Thanks

Thank you Jeff. You have helped clear up confusion. As with any new thing, I have to ask questions, because as in most of what I do, I am bad about making decisions on impulse and regretting them later On this forum I feel like I have the backing to make informed decisions about purchases and projects. Thank all of you!!

Tracy

[jeff...]

BTW Internet lumber is a good company and at $1.69 a BF for KD rough ash, that's a killer price - makes me wonder how they stay in business - guess it's volume.

[walnutjerry]

Originally Posted by jeff...

"Lengths are 8' and longer, widths from 4" to 12".All SuperPAKs ship truck freight."

Wondering how FAS could be anything less than 6" wide and 8' long? - I would call them and ask.

Thanks

That is a valid point Jeff--------------one of the reasons I questioned my order. There were a substantial number of boards under 5 1/2" in the rough. Some just a shade over that. That should not happen even in FAS-1F. Not if I read the rules correctly.

I think the narrower widths are acceptable in the select and better grade. That being the primary difference in FAS and Select.

Set me straight if I am wrong.

Jerry

[jeff...]

Originally Posted by walnutjerry

That is a valid point Jeff--------------one of the reasons I questioned my order. There were a substantial number of boards under 5 1/2" in the rough. Some just a shade over that. That should not happen even in FAS-1F. Not if I read the rules correctly.

I think the narrower widths are acceptable in the select and better grade. That being the primary difference in FAS and Select.

Set me straight if I am wrong.

Jerry

That's my understanding as well - with the exception of "select and better grade" statement. Minimum board sizes for #2 is 3"x4', #1 3"x4', Select 4"x6', F1F 6"x8' and FAS also 6"x8'

However lumber shrinks when dry, so I guess it depends, if the boards were graded green. Flatsawn shrinks more in width and less in thickness than QS which shrinks more in thickness and less in width. Around 1/2" width shrinkage on a 6" wide flatsawn board is not uncommon in hardwood. Also keep in mind some yards when grading round up width to the nearest inch for anything on the 1/2" mark or above. However I think common practice is to alternate one board down the next up. Also if your boards were straight-lined that could explain the width discrepancy.

My guess the boards were 6" wide at one point in time either while green or before being machined.

[walnutjerry]

Originally Posted by jeff...

That's my understanding as well - with the exception of "select and better grade" statement. Minimum board sizes for #2 is 3"x4', #1 3"x4', Select 4"x6', F1F 6"x8' and FAS also 6"x8'

However lumber shrinks when dry, so I guess it depends, if the boards were graded green. Flatsawn shrinks more in width and less in thickness than QS which shrinks more in thickness and less in width. Around 1/2" width shrinkage on a 6" wide flatsawn board is not uncommon in hardwood. Also keep in mind some yards when grading round up width to the nearest inch for anything on the 1/2" mark or above. Also if your boards were straight-lined that could explain the width discrepancy.

My guess the boards were 6" wide at one point in time either while green or before being machined.

Jeff,

What I bought was not straight-lined.

Even if the board was 6" green, 1/2"+ shrinkage on flat sawn would be in the area of 12% shrinkage in width. I have not googled that information so I am asking-----------is that not unrealistic amount of shrinkage?

When Is the lumber graded? I assumed it was coming out of the kiln. Maybe it occurs before and after? I am still learning too

Jerry

[jeff...]

Originally Posted by walnutjerry

Jeff,

What I bought was not straight-lined.

Even if the board was 6" green, 1/2"+ shrinkage on flat sawn would be in the area of 12% shrinkage in width. I have not googled that information so I am asking-----------is that not unrealistic amount of shrinkage?

When Is the lumber graded? I assumed it was coming out of the kiln. Maybe it occurs before and after? I am still learning too

Jerry

Well

Not uncommon for Flat Sawn 6" wide RO to shrink 1/2 in width after dry...

Check woodweb's calc
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calcu...ator=shrinkage

The amount of shrinkage calculated is:
0.5811 inches
or:
0 19/32 inches
(rounded to nearest 1/32 inch)

The information you entered was:
Width: 6 inches
Initial Moisture Content: 0.3 (decimal percentage value)
Final Moisture Content: 0.06 (decimal percentage value)
The type of lumber you chose was: Flat Sawn

The Shrinkage Percentage Value used for
the species you chose (Oak, Southern Red) was: 11.3%

Also Check NHLA rule #4 (near the begining of the rule book) also Check rule 2.12.4.1 (the end of the rule book)

[walnutjerry]

Originally Posted by jeff...

Well

Not uncommon for Flat Sawn 6" wide RO to shrink 1/2 in width after dry...

Check woodweb's calc
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calcu...ator=shrinkage

The amount of shrinkage calculated is:
0.5811 inches
or:
0 19/32 inches
(rounded to nearest 1/32 inch)

The information you entered was:
Width: 6 inches
Initial Moisture Content: 0.3 (decimal percentage value)
Final Moisture Content: 0.06 (decimal percentage value)
The type of lumber you chose was: Flat Sawn

The Shrinkage Percentage Value used for
the species you chose (Oak, Southern Red) was: 11.3%

Also Check NHLA rule #4 (near the begining of the rule book) also Check rule 2.12.4.1 (the end of the rule book)

Jeff---------under "General Instructions" near the front #8 states Contracts for green lumber should specify dimensions required to provide for shrinkage. #10 says 90% of minimum widths mentioned in all grades shall be full width, 10% may be up to 1/4" scant in width.

on page 58 it repeats itself saying minimum widths may be 1/4" scant.

That tells me there should not be anything less than 5 3/4" wide in FAS-1F.

Am I reading it right?

Jerry