Problems using alcohol based Transtint dyes

Problems using alcohol based Transtint dyes · 08-30-2009, 06:42 PM

I've dissolved the dye in denatured alcohol and both sprayed and wiped it, but I'm getting a lot of "spotting" and streaking from what looks like the solvent evaporating too quickly.

The problem is that I'm having a heck of a time getting rid of these and getting the color on four different parts to match. So, I'm pondering trying to strip it out, or even it out, as much as I can between all four of these pieces that I'm working with.

Question:
What's causing this result?

Question:
Would it be detrimental to completely submerge these pieces in alcohol for an extended time period to even out the color between the four pieces? In this case, since they are table legs, I would have to probably use a PVC cylinder to lower them into. I've seen that the turners do this, but I wasn't sure as to the reason other than to drive out water.

Question:
Would a retarder help in this case, or a different solvent altogether?

Question:
Am I hosed at this point? Should I just paint $400 worth of wood?

21productionz · 08-30-2009, 06:57 PM

Alcohol based stains are a lot harder to work with than oil based, they penetrate a lot deeper, and flash off a lot faster. When you go over a spot that has already been stained by the alcohol it will get darker every-time. You have to apply it very evenly, and it takes a lot of practice.

A good way to start is to spray it with very little air at the gun (if your spray gun has an adjustment valve under the handle that is the one to tighten, just enough to atomize the stain) and try "not" to overlap as much as possible. You want the fluid coming out in a fine mist, the less color you get on each pass until you get used to it the easier it will be to the results you are looking for.

While it is possible to apply it with a rag, it is a lot harder to apply an even coat of stain that way.

Edit: If you need help using the other adjustments on the gun let me know I will help you the best I can.

Forgive me if you already know this stuff I am new here and just trying to help.

Edit 2: Paint is only for wood when a customer pays you to defile it, other than that if you're gonna paint it make it out of MDF.

fergy · 08-30-2009, 07:22 PM

I started with the gun running at 45PSI, which gave me good spray on a test piece, of course. But what I noticed when I started the final pieces was that I got spitting and spotting in the finish. What I tried to do was even it out by flooding and wiping, and then doing the same with pure alcohol to smooth it out. At this point that has moderate effect, but the pieces are becoming very uneven.

21productionz · 08-30-2009, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by fergy

I started with the gun running at 45PSI, which gave me good spray on a test piece, of course. But what I noticed when I started the final pieces was that I got spitting and spotting in the finish.
What I tried to do was even it out by flooding and wiping, and then doing the same with pure alcohol to smooth it out. At this point that has moderate effect, but the pieces are becoming very uneven.

Did you let the gun sit for a while between the good test piece and the final finish? Did you try cleaning out the tip?

Tarhead · 08-30-2009, 07:41 PM

Fergy,

Not sure what your finish schedule was going to be after the dye. Here's what I'd do:
Lightly sand with 150 and get off as much as you can without going to too much trouble. Get a large piece of scrap wood from your project and dye it to the same tone point as your streaked up project and sand it to the same level (ie: this is your test piece...don't want to experiment on your project!) Get some Behlen Solarlux Retarder (Woodcraft has it) and mix it 10% with your DNA/Transtint mixture. This will give you some open time and help keep a wet edge. Test part of the dyed and lightly sanded scrap piece. It will probably be too dark. If it is, dilute the mixture in half with 9 parts DNA + 1 part Retarder and see how many coats you need to get to the tone you're after. Make sure you perfect your spray or brush or rag technique on the scrap. I get the best results with a foam brush not a spray gun with dyes.

You can even out the tone after everything dries by following the dye with a seal coat of shellac followed with a glaze/toner followed with a cover coat.

Good luck!

fergy · 08-30-2009, 07:47 PM

Okay, cool, that's what I was looking for. I'd used Solarlux before and it worked great, but I was using black.

Rather than sand, would it be possible to strip these in clean DNA? At least lighten it and get them all back to the same "starting point"? I'd rather waste $50 in DNA then to sand these out, especially since they've got some relief that shows endgrain, which will be a nightmare to get clean.

In this case I'm using the brown mahogany Transtint finish on African mahogany legs. I just wanted to darken the base before I continued to darken it with a sprayed shellac sealer and toner. Final finish would be thinned armour seal.

My goal was to get these rather dark brown with slight red tint along with some gloss. I was dying to even out the tone because the pieces had some issues with matching.

fergy · 08-30-2009, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by 21productionz

Did you let the gun sit for a while between the good test piece and the final finish? Did you try cleaning out the tip?

No, it was about 10 minutes.

Tarhead · 08-30-2009, 10:28 PM

"In this case I'm using the brown mahogany Transtint finish on African mahogany legs. I just wanted to darken the base before I continued to darken it with a sprayed shellac sealer and toner. Final finish would be thinned armour seal."

Armour Seal may complicate things as I'm not sure how it behaves on top of multiple coats of shellac. I would take a streaked/spotted piece of scrap through the finish schedule and see if it looks as bad then as is does now. Shellac sealer (especially Amber) and toners have a way of hiding Boo-Boos.

If you really don't want to sand it down and would consider a shellac topcoat you can try spraying an Amber shellac on your streaked/spotted scrap piece; even it out with a Brown Mahog glaze; follow with multiple coats of a blonde shellac and see how that works.

Howard????

fergy · 08-30-2009, 10:48 PM

In researching a little more, it looks like the dye was coming back out of the pores, which is what was causing the ring-shaped spotting that I am getting. I'm going to walk away from it for a day or so and calm down before I figure out what to do next. I'm really leaning toward stripping it in an alcohol bath. I may run it with a recirlcuating filter with a bunch of carbon to strip out the color so that I can start from scratch, or at least as close to scratch as I can get.

Armourseal is a nightmare, I have to say, but I've finally discovered that thinning it about 30% with mineral spirits helps it alot. I'm still kicking myself for starting this project with that stuff again, because every time I use it I want to kill someone. For some reason I was thinking it would be a better finish in this case than pre-cat lacquer. Live and learn.

Tarhead · 08-30-2009, 11:11 PM

Jeff Jewitt runs this forum: http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/phpBB2/
Post your situation there. The Transtint experts are there.

I'm thinking the DNA bath won't accomplish much except make your Fire Department and the Revenuers nervous

. Will the dye come off on a DNA soaked rag? If so, just use a soaked rag or grey 3M pad and even it out.

fergy · 08-30-2009, 11:33 PM

It comes off in rags quite well, which is what's making me think of bathing it. I keep trying to even it out that way but it's still leaving spots and weird lines. The other problem is the small detail areas. I can't get into them very well, so my thought is that if I can saturate it with solvent, it will even itself out due to diffusion, as well as lighten up quite a bit, giving me a good point to proceed from.

I just used Scott rags to absorb as much of it as I could, but I didn't try the pads. Maybe I'll try that tomorrow.

Thanks for giving me more things to think about on this.

ErnieM · 08-31-2009, 12:25 AM

David said"

Edit 2: Paint is only for wood when a customer pays you to defile it, other than that if you're gonna paint it make it out of MDF.

I couldn't agree less.

Ernie

21productionz · 08-31-2009, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by ErnieM

David said"

I couldn't agree less.

Ernie

That's the beauty of being human, we all have our differences

fergy · 08-31-2009, 03:50 PM

Were I to get really frustrated, I wouldn't really paint these legs, as I stated earlier. I'd really go for the black lacquer look, which would work well with the colors in the rest of the piece. It was always an option, but I'd rather get the original color I'm looking for along with being able to see the grain.

I'm still researching what to do at this point.

Tarhead · 08-31-2009, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by 21productionz

That's the beauty of being human, we all have our differences

David,
Take a look at Ernie's photo gallery (click on the drawing of the camera by his name). I think you'll agree that there's paint on wood and there's what Ernie and his wife do with paint on wood. Kinda like apples and pineapples huh?