Dilemma: Finishing over Gel Stain

Dilemma: Finishing over Gel Stain · 11-05-2009, 11:01 AM

Here's my problem:

Sanded SPF trestle table to 120 grit and applied 2 coats of GF gel stain followed by 2 coats of Waterlox. Well, it still feels like about 120 grit. Fortunately, I haven't committed to the table top itself except for the initial 2 coats of gel stain. I'm now reading that gel stain top coats need special consideration and require an oil or water-borne poly.

Sanding seems risky because of the thin surface build and the risk of breaking through the stain and getting a really splotchy surface. How can I salvage this?

I'm considering the following: 1. Continue as is with an oil based poly without sanding; 2. Coat with Zinsser SealCoat and then oil based poly.

What do ya'll think? Any experience and recommendations will be appreciated. Maybe our finishing guru, Howard Acheson, will chime in!

dancam · 11-05-2009, 11:21 AM

I"d go w/the shellac seal coat and then the oil based poly. Zinsser's Seal coat is really good for top coating/sealing almost any stain and it accepts almost any top coat w/o compatibility issues.

Good luck.

Dan C.

Travis Porter · 11-05-2009, 11:29 AM

Number 2. The oil based poly could cause the stain to "break free" and make more mess. The seal coat will give a barrier before applying the poly.

Howard Acheson · 11-09-2009, 02:06 PM

If you stopped sanding at 120 grit, that is way too soon. Swirls and sanding marks will easily show. Optimally, surfaces should be sanded to 180 grit without skipping intermediate grits. The final sanding should be by hand and with the grain using the grit last used in your sander.

After sanding to 180 you are ready to stain. What wood are you using? Are you using an oil based gel stain or a waterborne gel stain? What do you mean by gel stain needing special consideration?

Once the gel stain is fully dry, you can apply your first two coats of clear. Once these coats are fully dry, you can lightly sand with 320 paper to smooth the surface. At that point you can apply 2 to 3 more coats of your clear coat and you should done.

I doubt that you will be able smooth the surface and eliminate the scratches from your 120 grit sanding. You can try applying a couple of more coats, letting it dry fully and then sanding with 320 grit. May work. If it were me, I would use a chemical stripper and remove what you have applied. Then, I would continue my sanding to 150 and then 180 grit and start over on your finishing.

WDHTRIM · 11-09-2009, 06:50 PM

SHORT OF SANDING IT OFF AND STARTING OVER THERE ISNT MUCH THAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT THE SCRATCHES YOU LEFT

. HOWEVER SEVERAL COATS OF FINSH,SANDING SEVERAL COATS,SAND FIANL COAT APRAOCH WIL INCASE THOSE FIBERS AND GIVE YOU A SMOOTH FEEL. JUST MAKE SURE THAT THE TOP IS PREPPED RIGHT (ATLEAST 180) BEFORE APPLYING ANY FINISH.AND THEN FLATTEN AND BUFF THE FINAL SUFACE. LUCKILY THE TOP GETS THE MOST ATTENTION SO MAYBE FEW WILL NOTICE THE SUB PAR FINISH ON THE LEGS IF YOU KEEP THERE EYES ON THE TOP.

Jeff · 11-10-2009, 06:55 PM

Many thanks to all of you for your input and advice. My final sanding on the SPF was at 120 grit. General Finishes gel stain instructions say "sand to 120 and to no more than 150 grit" before application. Their advice was to NOT use shellac as a sealer before applying the Waterlox!

The General Finishes folks recommended buffing with 0000 steel wool after 1) their oil based gel stain (2 coats) and 2) two coats of Waterlox with a light steel wool buffing in between subsequent finish coats. That is working pretty well in my case so I think that the whole thing is gonna finish out ok with some time and patience. Patience, patience, patience...

Again, many thanks to all of you for your advice and suggestions. I'll eventually post some pics to verify that it's happening!

Hopefully other members will benefit from this discussion and how to fix it for their own projects.

Jeff · 11-13-2009, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Howard Acheson

If you stopped sanding at 120 grit, that is way too soon. Swirls and sanding marks will easily show. Optimally, surfaces should be sanded to 180 grit without skipping intermediate grits. The final sanding should be by hand and with the grain using the grit last used in your sander.

After sanding to 180 you are ready to stain. What wood are you using? Are you using an oil based gel stain or a waterborne gel stain? What do you mean by gel stain needing special consideration?

Once the gel stain is fully dry, you can apply your first two coats of clear. Once these coats are fully dry, you can lightly sand with 320 paper to smooth the surface. At that point you can apply 2 to 3 more coats of your clear coat and you should done.

I doubt that you will be able smooth the surface and eliminate the scratches from your 120 grit sanding. You can try applying a couple of more coats, letting it dry fully and then sanding with 320 grit. May work. If it were me, I would use a chemical stripper and remove what you have applied. Then, I would continue my sanding to 150 and then 180 grit and start over on your finishing.

Special consideration for top coating gel stains. My comment is based upon an article by Teri Masaschi in a Taunton press publication titled "Finishing & Refinishing Furniture". I quote:

"Most gel stains remain on the surface-especially on hardwood-rather than penetrating the wood as dye stains do. Unless they are protected with a durable topcoat, heavy-use areas such as table tops risk the color wearing through. With the exception of Clearwater, topcoat options are limited with these gels. Bartley, Wood-Kote, and Olympic recommend a gel varnish or liquid polyurethane."

Waterlox "Original" seems to be working okay in my case.

Howard Acheson · 11-14-2009, 12:39 PM

>>> "Most gel stains remain on the surface-especially on hardwood-rather than penetrating the wood as dye stains do. Unless they are protected with a durable topcoat, heavy-use areas such as table tops risk the color wearing through. With the exception of Clearwater, topcoat options are limited with these gels. Bartley, Wood-Kote, and Olympic recommend a gel varnish or liquid polyurethane.

That's not a "special condition". Gel stains are just a different type of oil based pigment stain in which a thickener has been added. All pigment stains just deposit a layer of pigment particles onto the wood surface. They contain a little bit of varnish to which holds the pigment onto the surface. Both gel pigment stain and standard oil based pigment stain require top coating or the pigment will be quickly abraded off.

Oil based pigment stains can be overcoated with any oil based or waterborne clear finish. Shellac and lacquer can even be used. Waterlox Original is an excellent choice. It's both very durable and, being a non-poly varnish, it is quite a bit more clear

Jeff · 11-14-2009, 06:28 PM

Howard,

Thanks for the heads up. We can all benefit from the information and make informed choices for our finishing needs. In my case the Waterlox "Original" topcoat has worked real well, but I had to learn to buff it lightly with 0000 steel wool after the first 2-3 coats and after each subsequent coat up to the final coat.