Dust collector noise

[Bas]

With Fall rapidly approaching, a young man's fancy turns to buying a dust collector. I've been pretty happy with my modded Harbor Freight setup, but I think it's time to upgrade. I have a lot more room in the new shop, so I'm thinking about getting a cyclone separator and upgrade the duct work to 6".

After reviewing 15,984 threads here on North Carolina Woodworker, SawmillCreek, Woodnet and various other sites, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. There are no (recent) independent tests on cyclones for a good comparison
2. Much of the data supplied by the manufacturer is as useless as claiming a 120V shop vac has a 6.5HP motor
3. Oneida makes very good systems, but they're not cheap. Filet Mignon.
4. ClearVue makes very good systems, reasonably priced, but some assembly required. Prime Rib.
5. Grizzly makes good systems that are reasonably priced. NY Strip
6. JDS seems to change systems a lot. Mystery Meat.
7. Opinions on the Penn State vary wildly, but overall they appear to be neither the best nor the worst, and neither the cheapest nor the most expensive. If Penn State had a flavor, it'd be Chicken.
8. Lots of happy cyclone owners (regardless of brand), very few unhappy cyclone owners (regardless of brand)
9. Cyclone dust collectors are noisy.

(I have more conclusions, but I'd go past 9 and that messes up the alignment in my list).

My shop is in the basement, so noise is somewhat of a concern. Your DC can never be powerful enough, but not quiet enough either. By comparison, the rest of the power tools (table saw, jointer) are much louder of course, but those are typically on for maybe a minute at a time, whereas the DC remains running for longer periods of time.

One of the systems I was looking at is the Grizzly G0441. Then I checked the sound level...83db at 10'. Ouch. That would put it in the mid 90s when I'm standing at my table saw. I plan to put the cyclone in a closet and add some insulation to dampen the sound, but there is only so much you can do with that.

For those that have a cyclone DC - which one do you have, and do you find it too noisy?

I may step done and go with the Grizzly G0440 instead. It has 2HP (vs. 3HP), but it's 8db quieter, which is significant. I haven't read any reports of people who bought the 2HP version and wished they'd gone with the 3HP version, so I'm not too concerned about the step down in power. Then again, I haven't heard of anyone who wished they'd gone with less power either.....

For those that have a 2HP cyclone DC (Oneida/ Grizzly/ JDS/ Penn State etc.) - ever wish you'd gone with a larger machine?

[SteveHall]

Bas, are you able to put the collector outside anywhere? Even to return the air back to the space, at least you get the motor and cyclone noise outside.

[merrill77]

Originally Posted by Bas

By comparison, the rest of the power tools (table saw, jointer) are much louder of course, but those are typically on for maybe a minute at a time, whereas the DC remains running for longer periods of time.

It doesn't have to be...mine is only on when I'm using the tool it is hooked to - I have a remote hanging from my toolbelt - turn it on and off as I turn on the tools. IIRC, the ClearVue comes with a remote.

[MIKE NOAH]

BAS,
Here was my thought process when I purchased my Clearvue max:
(1) I didn't want to have to upgrade again ( after having a 1hp and 2 hp Jet bag system)
(2) I wanted nearly all of my stationary tools hooked up to the main duct so that I wouldn't be lazy and not use dust collection because that meant rolling around pulling hoses (taking more time to hook up the DC then the cut would take) (3) Can you really have too much cfm? (I often let my down draft table help assist the hanging ambient air cleaner when not running other machines)

I figured I would buy the best system that I could afford to allow longer duct runs, compensate for leaky blast gates and still move enough air. For me that was the Clearvue which I have been using for 2 years now and I am still happy w/ it. I however have never been in another home/hobby shop that has another brand hooked up for comparative purposes so I cannot say it is better or worse then the Oniedas, Jets, Grizzlys, etc.

With all that being said the Clearvue site has a lot of good info on constructing cyclone closets. With mine I starting out with it out in the open and got around 92 db @ 10ft. I built my closet utilizing mass rather than expensive sound dampening that has mixed reviews. My walls are of 2x6 construction with starting from the inside skin, 3/4 melamine, batt insulation, 3/4 mdf, 7/16 frp laminated osb. All seams caulked. I baffled the return air starting off near the floor opposite the cyclone then put baffles in between the 2x6s and exiting about 3 ft higher then the internal return inlet. I also hung the unit rather than let it sit on the standard bracket Clearvue describes. I have a dbl pane glass and steel door going into the closet. I currently get around 65 to 68 dbs within a foot of the door's window. With all blasts gates closed a noticeable hum is present but easily spoke over with normal conversation levels. Open a blast gate and the nuisance noise starts.

One last thing, if you do build a closet, size it for an air compressor too even if don't currently have one

Well that's my 2 cents ....
Mike

[Alan in Little Washington]

I have homemade cyclone based on the Bill Pentz design, except it is tall (3D vs standard 1.64D) driven by a very old Griz 3 hp blower with 14" steel impeller and all hooked up in a non-traditional push-through configuration.

If your shop is still growing and you are upgrading from a HF DC, go to minimum 3 hp or all the way to the 5 hp with a min. 14" impeller. Of course, use 6" duct (PVC S&D for ease and cost)

Noise- two options:

• Put it in a closet in the shop- means building and insullating a closet, take up more shop space, possible motor heating issues
• Put it in another room or outside in a shed- will noise affect neighbors? You should return air to the shop. You can afford to be messy emptying bin.

[McRabbet]

There are several members here that have ClearVue Cyclones and I'm certain they are all very pleased with them (IIRC, the list includes Purple Thumb, Jim Murphy, Dino Drosas, Trog777, Gdoebs and me -- and Mike Noah). The design is excellent and both suction and separation is amazing. While a closet is a recommended solution to reduce the nominal 86dB noise output, the company that makes them recently found that a small alteration in their blower outlet stream lowered the noise level by nearly 10dB.

A simple block of wood! The company owners have also produced a video showing the sound output with several shop machines on their video page. If you wonder about the suction capacity of the ClearVue, check out the Tape Measure Video on this same page. I've witnessed this and it is very real.

<commence self flagellation>Installation is not difficult; it just requires one to overcome procrastination </end self flagellation>

[Bas]

Originally Posted by SteveHall

Bas, are you able to put the collector outside anywhere? Even to return the air back to the space, at least you get the motor and cyclone noise outside.

Unfortunately, no. That would have been the best option of course.

Originally Posted by merrill77

It doesn't have to be...mine is only on when I'm using the tool it is hooked to - I have a remote hanging from my toolbelt - turn it on and off as I turn on the tools. IIRC, the ClearVue comes with a remote.

That's true, but I believe it's not terribly good for a DC to be switched on and off a lot. And yes, a remote is invaluable. Nothing like standing at the tool with the board ready to go and then having to put everything down again to turn on the DC.

Originally Posted by McRabbet

While a closet is a recommended solution to reduce the nominal 86dB noise output, the company that makes them recently found that a small alteration in their blower outlet stream lowered the noise level by nearly 10dB. A simple block of wood!

That's encouraging! How does that work though - hit the owner over the head? Jam it into the impeller?

Originally Posted by McRabbet

The company owners have also produced a video showing the sound output with several shop machines on their video page.

I did see that video, where Ed does the measurement with the decibel meter. A well-insulated closet makes a BIG difference.

Originally Posted by McRabbet

If you wonder about the suction capacity of the ClearVue, check out the Tape Measure Video on this same page. I've witnessed this and it is very real.

From everything I've seen, the ClearVue is a terrific unit. Price wise, I don't think you can get more suction for the money. The only thing I don't like about it is the assembly/ installation.

Originally Posted by MIKE NOAH

BAS,
Here was my thought process when I purchased my Clearvue max:
(1) I didn't want to have to upgrade again ( after having a 1hp and 2 hp Jet bag system)
(2) I wanted nearly all of my stationary tools hooked up to the main duct so that I wouldn't be lazy

I definitely don't want to upgrade again. That's why I was initially looking at a 3HP (or 5HP for the ClearVue) machine with a 15" impeller. The main tool area in my shop where I need DC is only about 400 sq. ft., with the longest run ~25ft. So most cyclones should be able to handle that, and as you pointed out, with a little extra capacity you don't have to worry about minor leaks or forgetting to close a blast gate.

So far, nobody has complained about systems being noisy, so maybe I'm making too much of this.

Originally Posted by MIKE NOAH

One last thing, if you do build a closet, size it for an air compressor too even if don't currently have one

Definitely! The one I have right now is quite noisy, a closet would be a welcome relief...

[CarvedTones]

There has been some amazing science in the last few years for controlling dust collection noise on the Neander front as well; the soft nylon bristles on modern wisks make much less noise than the old straw brooms.

[scsmith42]

Bas, I have an Oneida 3 hp Super Dust Gorilla (didn't you help assemble it?) for my smaller equipment, and it works very well. My original plan was to keep it in the main shop; however due to the noise I moved it into the mechanical room.

I think that it's definitely a good idea to either build a closet for it, or perhaps you could install it in the entry room where we stacked your wood? If you put it there at least it's closer to the outside for dust removal.

Scott

[Jeff Mills]

Put the cyclone upstairs in the living room then it won't be so loud when your working down in the basement

[merrill77]

That's true, but I believe it's not terribly good for a DC to be switched on and off a lot.

Really?!?!? I've never heard that. Other than the starter solenoid, I can't imagine there is any wear and tear from power cycling. Do you have a reference for that? Or anyone else have one? Inquiring minds want to know!

[gfernandez]

Bas,
Have you looked at Bill Pentz's website?

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/Index.cfm

More information than you could even imagine regarding dust collection. And to top it off, he is a great guy and willing to talk to at length regarding dust and dust collection. I talked to him several times for 20-30 minutes at a time when I was researching dust collectors. If you do talk to him, feel free to give me a call and I'll be happy to share my thoughts.

[Bas]

Originally Posted by CarvedTones

There has been some amazing science in the last few years for controlling dust collection noise on the Neander front as well; the soft nylon bristles on modern wisks make much less noise than the old straw brooms.

Originally Posted by scsmith42

Bas, I have an Oneida 3 hp Super Dust Gorilla (didn't you help assemble it?) for my smaller equipment, and it works very well. My original plan was to keep it in the main shop; however due to the noise I moved it into the mechanical room.

I think that it's definitely a good idea to either build a closet for it, or perhaps you could install it in the entry room where we stacked your wood? If you put it there at least it's closer to the outside for dust removal.

Scott

Hmmm, that's an interesting idea. It would dramatically increase the length of the run, but it would be a lot quieter. And easier to get the drum outside. Unfortunately, I can't cut through the walls, it would have to be surface mounted all the way (walls are prefab concrete "panels").

Originally Posted by merrill77

Really?!?!? I've never heard that. Other than the starter solenoid, I can't imagine there is any wear and tear from power cycling. Do you have a reference for that? Or anyone else have one? Inquiring minds want to know!

For some reason, I can't cut&paste it, but the Oneida manual for the Dust Gorilla says you should only cycle it 4-10 times per hour to avoid overheating (page 15).

[Jeff Mills]

How can I quiet my cyclone down? It sounds like a jet engine trying to tug away my home?

1. If you bolt directly to your framing, most of the noise is fairly low frequency so like a subwoofer will go all over your shop and house if they are attached. I know as I have 12" of well-insulated plenum between my and my teen's room. Now all I hear is the bass. All you can do is to change over the mounting to use shock mounts so the low frequency stuff does not make your shop and or home walls into sounding boards. Grainger's carries them (search under vibration hanger), but pick a set that is sized near the overall weight as heavier mounts provide little vibration protection.
2. I like adding a muffler. PSI sells one for $49 that I have heard saves about 10 dB as well, but it only fits a 5" outlet that I think is too small. Quite a few have made their own mufflers out of perforated pipe wrapped with screen then with fiberglass followed by being slipped into a larger tube. I tried making one using PVC pipe because PVC helps dampen the noise, but found sliding the outer pipe onto the insulated inner was difficult. For my next I used 8" snap lock pipe on a 6" perforated center pipe covered in window screen then fiberglass insulation. With the 8" pipe it was bear to fasten that center seam but much easier than trying to slip that mess into a tight PVC tube. My Home Depot store had nice tapered 8" to 6" reducers that ended up making a pretty good-looking unit. After I went to all that work, Larry Adcock, creator of the WoodSucker, told me it would have been easier to just use a length of fiberglass insulated HVAC flex duct in place of the muffler as it apparently does a better job and costs far less. I tried that and he was right!
   
   I've since bought a good digital dB meter. I measured 96 db with the blower just going directly into the filter through metal duct. Adding my homemade muffler to that same setup dropped it to 88 dB. It went down to 92 dB using PVC duct and no muffler. Using insulated HVAC duct it went down to 87 dB with no muffler. Using insulated HVAC duct and my own homemade muffler it went down to 82 dB. These test results will vary considerably depending upon how you made your blower, your choice of impeller, motor choice, any coatings or insulation you use, and depending if you use anti-vibration mounts.
3. Rather than attach my cyclone directly to my ducting metal to metal, I use a short length of flex pipe. That keeps the metal from carrying the sound. In spite of my advice, my personal solution involved a lot of work. I hung the whole setup using shock mounts. I used my home-made muffler. The spray helped about 5-10 dB and the muffler they say saved about 10 dB. Wrapping the outlet to the muffler with pipe wrap helped more getting rid of the sounding boards. Also going with MDF instead of my original plywood top on my cyclone seemed to help, but I like the extra strength of good Baltic birch plywood, so continue to use that for my blowers. I did try spraying the cyclone outside, but that did not seem to help much. Spraying the outside metal sides of the blower did seem to help, but I did that before getting my dB meter, so cannot say how much. I also tried putting the cyclone outside, but it was way too close to my wife's study/craft room and it quickly found itself back inside. Probably the biggest help was building a new cyclone that was far more carefully finished so the airflow was very clean.
4. In spite of my advice, my personal solution involved a lot of work. I hung the whole setup using shock mounts. I used my home-made muffler. The spray helped about 5-10 dB and the muffler they say saved about 10 dB. Wrapping the outlet to the muffler with pipe wrap helped more getting rid of the sounding boards. Also going with MDF instead of my original plywood top on my cyclone seemed to help, but I like the extra strength of good Baltic birch plywood, so continue to use that for my blowers. I did try spraying the cyclone outside, but that did not seem to help much. Spraying the outside metal sides of the blower did seem to help, but I did that before getting my dB meter, so cannot say how much. I also tried putting the cyclone outside, but it was way too close to my wife's study/craft room and it quickly found itself back inside. Probably the biggest help was building a new cyclone that was far more carefully finished so the airflow was very clean.
5. I have not tried an enclosure myself, but I know a few of the folks who have. They consistently said it did little to no good in terms of reducing the noise. Since those early comments, others have responded with solutions that apparently do work. They have built enclosures with enough room to access the cyclone using either two layers of sheetrock inside and a third outside or sheetrock outside and a 3M construction sound deadening board inside. They also recommended mounting the cyclone on a wall with isolation dampers to keep the wall from being used as a sounding board.
6. Adding the baffling and sound deadening materials to the outside of the cyclone around the blower and outlet would help considerably. My only caution would be to not use something that becomes a dust collector.
7. You can also use one of the rubberized spray on compounds such as Dip-It or a plastic based automotive undercoating (not oil or tar). If you use either, be careful, as the odors can be terrible.
8. Strangely, using PVC pipe instead of dust collector spiral pipe or thick HVAC pipe also seems to help considerably as you don't hear nearly as much sawdust rattling in the pipes.
9. Yitah R. Wu says: "With regards to cyclone noise, I work in automotive and one product which probably be good for reducing cyclone noise is what we call peel and stick mastic. It's usually in 8x10 sheets and is basically a 1/16" sheet of asphalt and recycled rubber with adhesive on it. It does a great job of both adding mass and dampening for sound deadening of the cyclone itself. Auto parts and auto stereo stores typically carry this material. Some brands are Evercoat Q-Pads and Dynamat."

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/BuildCyclone.cfm

[FredP]

A good broom and dust pan hardly make any noise at all........