Planning....

DaveO · 12-03-2006, 11:43 AM

I am planning a project. It's a kitchen hutch for my wife for Xmas. I doubt I will have it done in time, but that is OK with the boss. This is to replace a metal bakers rack that holds our pots and pans. The LOML wants it painted, at first I refused, but then we looked at most kitchen hutches commercially available and found that they were all painted. So I agreed to paint, but will leave the doors and bottom cabinet top natural finish Red Oak to match with our kitchen cabinets.
Here's a scan of my concept sketch:

I have several questions for the collective wisdom of North Carolina Woodworker'er.
First, with the natural wood doors and top, should I consider making the top crown natural or painted?
Second, will a 45" span be too much for edge reinforced 3/4" ply shelves (adjustable)?
Third, would 1/4" ply for the panels of the flat-panel inset doors ~20" x 30" be too flimsy or "not solid" sounding when closed?
Fourth, I would like to use beaded ply for the back panel of the top shelving unit. Is it available in anything other than 1/4" and should I use something thicker to resist racking (the shelves will be adjustable).
Fifth, I am planning on using biscuits for the carcass construction, and pocket screws for the face frame (reason to by a Kreg jig

) and groove and stub-tenon for the doors (with glued in ply panels), am I under engineering or will those methods be strong enough for this application?
Thanks in advance for all the advice and guidance, I am sure that I will have more questions as I go along

I will try to take some progress pics for your viewing pleasure (comedic relief)

Dave

rhett · 12-03-2006, 12:19 PM

-I think oak crown will look better than painted
-I have made 48'' solid edge banded shelfs (1 1/2") with little deflection, you can always add a center mullion to the upper and put system holes up the back if you plan to load it down
-1/4 inch panels will not rattle if your groove is tight and you use space balls
-beaded panels can be bought 3/8" and 1/2" although your cabinet will not rack with a 1/4" back
-Your biscuit and pocket hole joinery will be more than sufficient for strength

On another note, when you need your oak crown let me know, I have access to a moulding cutter

Just my $.02, even if you didn't want it

walnutjerry · 12-03-2006, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by DaveO

I am planning a project. It's a kitchen hutch for my wife for Xmas. I doubt I will have it done in time, but that is OK with the boss. This is to replace a metal bakers rack that holds our pots and pans. The LOML wants it painted, at first I refused, but then we looked at most kitchen hutches commercially available and found that they were all painted. So I agreed to paint, but will leave the doors and bottom cabinet top natural finish Red Oak to match with our kitchen cabinets.
Here's a scan of my concept sketch:

I have several questions for the collective wisdom of North Carolina Woodworker'er.
First, with the natural wood doors and top, should I consider making the top crown natural or painted?
have you considered leaving just the flat panel natural and paint the face frame? But the question----leave the crown natural and if it does not look to suit------paint it.
Second, will a 45" span be too much for edge reinforced 3/4" ply shelves (adjustable)?
if you reinforce front and back you should not have a problem.

Third, would 1/4" ply for the panels of the flat-panel inset doors ~20" x 30" be too flimsy or "not solid" sounding when closed?
If you use a good grade plywood and have a slip fit in the groove I think 1/4" is fine. If the groove in the stiles and rails are too wide then the panel will rattle.
Fourth, I would like to use beaded ply for the back panel of the top shelving unit. Is it available in anything other than 1/4" and should I use something thicker to resist racking (the shelves will be adjustable).
It may be available but I have only seen it in 1/4" thickness in 4x8 sheets.However----I have some old heart pine bead board app. 1/2" thick . I will give you enough to do the back if you come after it. It was salvaged from a local farm house.
Fifth, I am planning on using biscuits for the carcass construction, and pocket screws for the face frame (reason to by a Kreg jig ) and groove and stub-tenon for the doors (with glued in ply panels), am I under engineering or will those methods be strong enough for this application?
I am not sure how good a fastner biscuits are over the long haul, have not used them as primary fastners in anything----I normally use screws and plugs on a natural finish or finish nails and fill If I paint.

I prefer a longer tenon for assembling stiles and rails----usuall at least 2/3 the width of the stiles ---glue the tenons and fasten through the backside with short brads to hold it square until the glue dries.

I would not glue the panels in-----they need to "float" in the grooves of the door frame. The panels also need to be finished before assembly into the grooves. That allows the movement of the solid wood around the panel.
Thanks in advance for all the advice and guidance, I am sure that I will have more questions as I go along
Just my opinions Dave------I do not claim to be a professional cabinet maker.
I will try to take some progress pics for your viewing pleasure (comedic relief)
Looking forward to seeing the pics and the methods you chose to use.
Dave

Jerry

gator · 12-03-2006, 02:50 PM

I used ¼" panels in the doors on my bookcase. If they want to rattle you can use 'space balls' around the panels to keep them tight. So far as the back, if you wan the look of boards but using ply, look at the back of my bookcase. It is ¼" but you could do the same with ½" or 3/4' if you wanted. I just grooved it to random widths with a "V" bit. When you stain it the grooves get darker than the surface. If you choose your groove placement carefully you can split grain distenctions so you get more of the 'board' look. I used red oak ply for the panels and back to get a close match to the red oak face frame and door frames.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showp...ze=big&cat=197

George

Splinter · 12-03-2006, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by DaveO

I am planning a project. It's a kitchen hutch for my wife for Xmas. I doubt I will have it done in time, but that is OK with the boss. At the sppeed you turn out projects, it should be a breeze by Christmas. This is to replace a metal bakers rack that holds our pots and pans. The LOML wants it painted, at first I refused, but then we looked at most kitchen hutches commercially available and found that they were all painted. So I agreed to paint, but will leave the doors and bottom cabinet top natural finish Red Oak to match with our kitchen cabinets.
Here's a scan of my concept sketch:

I have several questions for the collective wisdom of North Carolina Woodworker'er.
First, with the natural wood doors and top, should I consider making the top crown natural or painted? Natural....
Second, will a 45" span be too much for edge reinforced 3/4" ply shelves (adjustable)? I don't think so unless you are going to put some vey heavy pots on it.
Third, would 1/4" ply for the panels of the flat-panel inset doors ~20" x 30" be too flimsy or "not solid" sounding when closed? No expierence with flat ply door panels.
Fourth, I would like to use beaded ply for the back panel of the top shelving unit. Is it available in anything other than 1/4" and should I use something thicker to resist racking (the shelves will be adjustable). If you are in doubt and can't get any thicker, just glue the 1/4" beadboard to something thicker to make it stiffer.
Fifth, I am planning on using biscuits for the carcass construction, and pocket screws for the face frame (reason to by a Kreg jig ) and groove and stub-tenon for the doors (with glued in ply panels), am I under engineering or will those methods be strong enough for this application? I used biscuits in a complete set of kitchen cabinets boxes made from melamine over 3 years ago that are in our house on Topsail Island and they haven't caused a problem. There is plenty of humidity in the air since the house is so close the ocean and right on the water and the cabinets are full of pots and pans and nothing has sagged or come loose. I used plenty of biscuits and glue. my $.01.
Thanks in advance for all the advice and guidance, I am sure that I will have more questions as I go along
I will try to take some progress pics for your viewing pleasure (comedic relief)
Dave

I like your design.

NZAPP1 · 12-03-2006, 07:58 PM

All I can help you with are the doors 1/4 panels will work fine with tight joints and space balls. As for the crown I would keep it natural. If you need some wide crown I have some in red oak.

Dutchman · 12-04-2006, 12:02 AM

Dave,
The above advice sounds good to me. Some other input:

On that lenght of span, I sometimes put a 1 1/2 front and back rail on my 3/4 adjustable shelf (turned on end so you see the 1 1/2 width facing the cabinet. You can put a upright in the center of the back to support the shelves also if you want to just go with a 3/4 shelf with out supports. I know you probably hate to paint the oak crown, but I would probably paint that instead of leaving it natural. I see a lot of cases with a natural wood top and the case is another finish, but you could possibly over do it with the two tone. One other idea I see alot is a different colored back panel from the case. That may not be applicable to your hutch. The 1/4" back panel should be plenty, just use a good top and bottom back rail. If you get it built and need them, you can always add some nicely sanded cleats for strenght. Looking forward to seeing your progress pics.

DaveO · 12-04-2006, 12:23 AM

THANKS EVERYONE!!! Your advice is priceless. I feel that I am headed in the right direction with my plans. I am going to try the crown unpainted, and if I don't like the look I will paint it

easy as pie. I am glad to hear that my chosen method of carcass construction won't self implode in a few days after finishing...I also have many things holding up just fine with biscuit joints over the years....the Internet can make you paranoid about joint strength

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions, I really appreciate it

Dave

jeff... · 12-04-2006, 12:48 AM

Dave, you a smart man sketching out a rough plan and seeking advise. I've learned a ton from this thread already

. May I ask what is planned for the round circle center top of the hutch?

Thanks

DaveO · 12-04-2006, 12:58 AM

I am surprised that you noticed that. I sketched that in there while the LOML and I were trying to decide whether to paint the top or not. My suggestion was if it was painted to do a inlay of Red Oak to tie everything together...or something more interesting than that

Dave

jeff... · 12-04-2006, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by DaveO

I am surprised that you noticed that. I sketched that in there while the LOML and I were trying to decide whether to paint the top or not. My suggestion was if it was painted to do a inlay of Red Oak to tie everything together...or something more interesting than that

Dave

I got a chunk of curly sycamore if your interested, it might look cool to carve a flower or something?

Thanks

Joe Scharle · 12-04-2006, 11:04 AM

I've never had any problems with glued-in plywood panels in a stub tenon panel/door. If I'm going to paint them, I don't even bother with sneaking up on the mortise with a 1/8" slot cutter. Cut a 1/4" mortise, glue up, let gravity hold the show side flush and caulk the the back side.

I did a bath once with 1/4" beaded ply glued (liquid nails scratched on) to 1/2" ply. 1/4" will wave across studs over time. So if you're planning center support for your shelves you might want to leave room in your back rabbet for another 1/4" backing ply, if ever needed.

It should be a pretty piece when you're done.

Joe
PS I vote all paint!

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