Cyclone Talk, Again

Cyclone Talk, Again · 10-27-2009, 09:31 AM

For the past 5 years I've been running a Jet 1100 dust collector in my hobby shop, and in that time I've tossed around "when" I'm going to upgrade to a cyclone system with better fine dust collection. Well, I'm back at it again ...

Cyclone talk has become similar to a religious, or political, argument. I'm fully aware that people stand on different sides of the fence, BUT I still want to hear it all again.

What I do know is that (1) fine dust collection is a must, (2) I want a system that will last me many years, (3) I'm not looking for a new project in dust collection, but rather a quick assembly, (4) 3HP minimum, and (5) I'm EXTREMELY tight on space -- but somehow always seem to squeeze it in.

After my initial research, I'm pretty much down to these ... HOWEVER I'm open to suggestions.

Oneida Super Dust Gorilla System (5HP, or 3HP)
http://www.oneida-air.com/gorilla_5hp.php
Oneida Portable High Efficiency Cyclone Collector - XXP030100
http://www.oneida-air.com/portable_3hp.php
JDS 3 HP Cyclone 3100
http://www.jdstools.com/index.asp?Pa...TS&Category=27

THOUGHTS? OPINIONS? BELIEFS? FACTS? OTHERS?

WoodWrangler · 10-27-2009, 09:36 AM

Oh yeah, I'm also considering the "Pro 2000" version of the Oneida --

JimmyC · 10-27-2009, 09:50 AM

Jeremy,

I would go with a standard mounted style, instead of mobile. The pro 2000 series is over 96" tall, do you have that height in your garage ? And if so, I'd probably go with the gorilla and mount it high and out of the way. Doug Robinson has one mounted in his shop and he made the fit look seamless, and we all know how little space and much equipment he has. So if you have height in the shop that's the way that I would go.

I know alot of people will say mobile, but I believe you and any future shops that you have will outgrow the mobile, and you already have a good mobile DC.

Best of luck,

ptt49er · 10-27-2009, 09:54 AM

I have to agree with Jimmy. We all know that you hate large equipment

Here's a thought...Would the cyclone lose efficiency if you mounted the cyclone part on an exterior wall and ducted the collection bin outside? That way you could mount the cyclone high on a wall and not lose much floor space.

Travis Porter · 10-27-2009, 10:16 AM

First off, that Jet 1100 is a toy. How can I say that? I had it's brother the 1200. It would do ok, but the difference in it and a 3 HP cyclone is unbelievable. What you have will work for one machine at a time, maybe two tops.

I have the Oneida 3 HP Super Dust Gorilla. I bought mine before Grizzly and JDS came out with their better grades of cyclone offerings. I looked at the Clearvue, but I just didn't see getting something like this with MDF and plastic parts, plus, there is a lot of work with it that you still have to do besides bolt it together. I am not bashing the Clearvue, it just didn't seem "industrial" enough for me.

I did the wall mount route. I didn't want to spend the money for the stand. Mine came with the key chain remote, and I highly recommend getting it.

Regardless of what you go with piping is a PAIN. Doesn't matter if it is plastic or metal, it is a pretty substantial undertaking. It is well worth it, as the mess in your shop goes down a LOT, but it is a pain. I did metal at the time as I was fearful of a dust explosion (I am a paranoid type), and I do not like getting shocked by static electricity (I am jumpy and startle easy as well). I bought all the fittings from Oneida, and bought all of my pipe from the Borg. I did buy reducers from the Borg as well. Like the idiot I am, I did not wear gloves, and my hands stayed bloody throughout. I had a couple of very nasty cuts before I learned my lesson.......

As far as fine filtration, I would suggest that is going to be limited by how fine the canister filter on the end is, and more so, by the quality of the dust ports on the machines. I have read all the hullabaloo on improving dust collection ports on machinery, and I have tried it on a couple of machines, and my results were less than satisfactory. I did the Pentz suggestions on my Delta 14" bandsaw, and could not tell a difference. On my big bandsaw, the collection is mediocre. I added a hook up to the top of the machine, replaced the foam all around the doors, and still, it is mediocre...... Same thing for my big jointer, collection is mediocre. Then you have the Felder. The collection on it is, mediocre...... It probably would help if I had the overheard guard with hookup, but I don't. I thought maybe since my Felder is not a newer model that they had improved it. I go look at a newer one, exact same hook up.

Now consider Festool. It isn't something you will hook up to a dust collector, but the thing about them is that they design their tools to maximize dust collection. On their sanders it is unbelievable. So, my recommendation is to buy the best collector you can (I would not go less than 3 HP), do what you can to improve the collection on your machines, and as you replace machinery, pay close attention to the quality of the dust collection design that is integrated into it.

Part of the reason of going 3 HP is you can leave the occassional gate open (not that it happens to me

) and still have good collection at another machine.

gritz · 10-27-2009, 10:23 AM

I have a similar need, although mine will be located in the basement retirement shop I am building out over the next two years, so sound and fine dust are serious concerns.

After digesting all the information I could find on-line, I have serious doubts about the presentation of data by most sellers of DC equipment. Some are borderline DC units but are obviously unsuited for health protection of users and their families. The sellers seem to ignore the most basic and well-published fan laws as well as the physics of entrainment and the efficiency of filters.

My concern is that many of us settle for the illusion of dust protection and set ourselves and our families up for serious illness later in life. At this point, if anyone can "sell" me on anything other than a Bill Pence design, they should run for president.

There is a video series on Youtube by a fellow in Tokyo who built his own Pence design DC at very low cost.

Douglas Robinson · 10-27-2009, 10:28 AM

Thanks for the props Jimmy. I have a Penn State that I got on CL. I agree with Jimmy and Travis. If you get one of the mobile models you will be selling it in a year or two to replace it with what you should have gotten now. I have metal duct work I bought from a company in Greensboro. It uses quick-clamps with gasket seals and is thus reconfigurable. I do not know how loud your 1100 is but be prepared for the fact that these units will be louder. I know yours is a garage shop, but having a separate outside enclosure for the cyclone would be a plus.

Travis Porter · 10-27-2009, 11:25 AM

The Pentz design, is just that a design. A design for hobbyists. Is it better than an Oneida, Grizzly, Penn State, or J&L? Who knows. Independent and good tests are not available, and what is available isn't real thorough in my opinion. One may have more suction, but it's fine filtration may not be anywhere near as good. I would also think that the Pentz/Clearvue would not be acceptable for commercial applications because it is not metal.

Is it going to be better than a commercial unit like a Torit/Donaldson? I seriously and sincerely doubt it. In most instances, the Industrial/commercial grades are far superior to what users like us can afford or swallow. Then the code requirements and OSHA restrictions are far more stringent than what we would ever consider.

JMTCW

Bas · 10-27-2009, 11:59 AM

I'm about a month from buying a cyclone dust collector myself, so I certainly understand the agonization (new word for the day

)

First, I would not get a portable unit. Contrary to popular belief, a portable unit requires more space, because you need to have room to move the machine around. If you have a central, open assembly area, then it's great. But, for most of us, an open area is just a part of the shop that hasn't received a new tool yet. Second, moving a hose to each machine is a pain. Having ductwork/ hose to each machine is great.
Third, power is a relative term. The Grizzly G0440 is rated at 2HP. It pulls 14A at 220V, and the mfg. fan curve has it listed at 1250cfm @ 3"SP. The Oneida V-3000 is rated at 3HP. It pulls 14.5A at 220V, and the mfg. lists it at 1285cfm @ 3"SP. Comparable filter surface sizes. Of course, there is no way to tell whether the specifications are comparable. You can do this type of comparison for a lot of machines, and it's all remarkably close.
Fourth, noise and power consumption (heat/ cost) matter with a dust collector, since it's likely to run hours at a time.
Fifth, if you've used Bill Pentz' spreadsheet to calculate static pressure loss, you'll understand how ducting size and branches matter. If Travis is happy with the 3HP unit for his shop, we're probably approaching overkill for a 2-car garage.
Sixth, the biggest problem by far is that most tools only have a 4" port. Even my lowly HF dust collector with trash can separator struggled pulling air through a 4" pipe. I don't have anything to measure it, but you could hear the system working harder when I partially opened a second blast gate.
Seventh, I have never heard of anyone who was unhappy with his or her cyclone dust collector, whether it's an Oneida, Grizzly, Penn State or ClearVue, regardless of horsepower. People (naturally) recommend what they have.
Eight, 6" duct work takes up a good bit of space. I ran 4" in my previous shop, and it affects where you put tools, run power cords, hang shelves and fixtures. This is one reason to go "big" on the horsepower, you can be frugal with the duct work and use 6' of hose to get to the machine as opposed to a typical 2'. Flex hose has like a gazillion time the resistance of smooth pipe, but if you have the HP to compensate, it makes life a lot simpler.

I know how anal retentive you are when it comes to comparing specs...because I'm the same way

I suggest you call Oneida, tell them what you have (machines/ shop size), and ask them for advice on which system to get. Then call all the other companies too and see if their stories are consistent. Then buy the first one that has a really good sale.

ashley_phil · 10-27-2009, 12:35 PM

more than likely you'll be happy with any 3 HP or greater cyclone on the market and if you add an afterfilter the "fines" will be just fine!!!!!!

i will say that Onieda is the market leader in innovation and share for the cyclone market for hobby shops. they are now moving further up the chain to commercial shops.

i will also say that very rarely does someone become a market leader by sheer luck and clever marketing.

Travis Porter · 10-27-2009, 12:44 PM

One additional point, I ran 8" pipe as my trunk lines and all my branches go down to 6" before going to the machine size, which in most instances is 4", but I do have a few with 5". The bigger the pipe you run, the better.

gritz · 10-27-2009, 01:06 PM

This is an intresting home-made option if you can actually scale it up for 3HP as claimed.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/206...x#ReviewHeader

PurpleThumb · 10-27-2009, 03:48 PM

Clear Vue, Clear Vue, Clear Vue!!!!! 5 HP, Pentz design and recommendation.

timf67 · 10-27-2009, 03:51 PM

Jeremy, if you have a rotary phase converter you can pick this one up for only $500:

http://www.lagunatools.com/used/Cabi...Dust-Collector

I would buy it myself, but since you need a "real" phase converter (rotary not stationary) the cost of the converter would be double the DC cost. It is a really neat setup though. I talked with Jeremy Windholz at Laguna about it. It is a unit that they don't sell. It was made to take to tradeshows etc. It looks like it would be quiet...

ashley_phil · 10-27-2009, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by timf67

Jeremy, if you have a rotary phase converter you can pick this one up for only $500:

http://www.lagunatools.com/used/Cabi...Dust-Collector

I would buy it myself, but since you need a "real" phase converter (rotary not stationary) the cost of the converter would be double the DC cost. It is a really neat setup though. I talked with Jeremy Windholz at Laguna about it. It is a unit that they don't sell. It was made to take to tradeshows etc. It looks like it would be quiet...

um ...there's got to be a reson Laguna is selling that for $ 500. they generally have an aireworks collector in their booth at the shows. they may have had that for really small shows.

remember you know when a salesman is lying when his lips are moving.