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Old 09-02-2008, 04:29 PM   #1
Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!
 
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manirban73 manirban73 is offline 09-02-2008, 04:29 PM

ANY Amateur Luthiers here?

So, hi, my name is Anirban, and I reside in Durham, near the Southpoint Mall area. I'm a student of Indian classical music, and I play a 23-stringed fretless lute called a sarod (pronounced - SA - Rode, as in Sally rode into town in her '69 Mustang).

In a fit of madness, I gutted out my instrument last week, and have undertaken the painfully long and complicated process of making this into a really really good instrument. And I would love some help!!

Here's a link to a picture of a sarod - the musician is a good family friend of mine in Cincinnati who has done a lot of research into engineering of this instrument (a lot of what I write below comes from his knowledge base) -
http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/bms/...d%20player.jpg

So, what do you see in the picture - in this picture, you see a solid piece of Burmese teak that has been carved out and made hollow. The sound chamber, towards the right hand of the player, is covered by a goat skin parchment which is glued onto the body. The instrument top (the left hand) plays notes on a fretless steel fingerplate attached to the wood with either brass or zinc plated screws. The steel, brass, or bronze strings, usually piano wire of different gauges, is attached from the tail to the tip and sits on top of a bone bridge (towards the tail), and a bone nut, towards the tip. Tuning is done using the 8 main pegs (the string of which are the ones that are plucked using a coconut shell pick). There are another 15 sympathetic strings (you see the pegs underneath the chest of the player) as well. These sympathetic strings are not plucked - they vibrate when the main strings are being plucked and add resonance to the instrument. In this sarod, the pegs are custom turned using Cocobolo.

So what do I need help with?

My instrument is made of a wood found commonly in eastern India called Toon, which, to my understanding is Indian Mahogany. After I gutted my instrument, I've been working here and there trying to get the varnish off using that nasty orange stuff from Home Depot.

I have a lot of plans for this instrument to try to make it a really world class (or at least, better than what it is now). Here's a list of things I'd love some help with if anyone was interested. And if no one is interested, then I walk the journey alone, so to speak, and will be just as grateful with the opportunity to do so.

1) Carving out the main sound chamber to an even 3/8" thickness -this is usually done with bowl carving chisels, but a combination of sanding and chiseling would work as well, I suppose. Also, if you notice in the picture above, there a round resonator behind the tip of the instrument where the 6 main pegs are - my resonator is too heavy for my instrument, so I'm going to eliminate it - but in order to do so, I need to plug the big hole behind the tip where it fit into with some mahogany and seal it off.

2) Custom staining and sealing the entire instrument - I was thinking of using a combination of stain, tung oil, and shellac to do this, but I'm really really open to suggestions.

3) If I can get access to a lathe and some help, I'd probably nearly faint if I could custom turn new pegs - all 23 of them, using some lightweight wood (butternut, maybe?).

4) Again, this is something so specialized, I will have a tough time - but if I could get my hands on a conical peg reamer (like a really big needle file), and a peg shaper (like a really big pencil sharpener), then I could custom fit the pegs to the main body, because I can them match the taper of the hole in the body to the taper of the pegs. The big IF is in trying to find the reamer and shaper - if not, I'll have to find a musical instrument repair shop to do this (if I could get #3 above done, then it'd be worth it).

5) I can buy mahogany kerfed strips online, so I'd need to glue a strip on either side of the main sound chamber towards the lip of the bowl where the skin is attached to give it some bracing.

6) I'd need to fabricate a mahogany brace for the inside to reinforce the instrument longitudinally.

7) Lastly, wood wise, I'd need to work with 2 relatively small pieces of mahogany - the first would be to make a seat that would help transition from the steel fingerboard to the skin (and possibly have some inlay work of mother of pearl here), and second, an even smaller piece to match up to the nut itself to use as a slider.


The other items are not wood working related, but I'll mention them anyways.

8) Finding a sheet metal shop to custom make the steel plate, either something high-carbon or maybe even stainless steel. The one I have is cast steel with chrome plating - it's pretty bad.

9) Custom making a new nut and /or bridge - usually these are made of bone, but I will be trying out some different materials - guitar guys are always talking about new nut material using something called Tusq, so I might give it a shot.

10) Lastly, if I can find a local source, I'd like to get my string (I have coils of string) cryogenically treated.

So, that's about it. Whew!

That all being said, I can easily drop $1000+ if I tried to have this done professionally, but I don't have that kind of money to drop on this (especially with a 17 month old and #2 on the way) - so this project will be a great hobby for me. Given the nature of the things I'd like to do, getting advice, access to tools, etc. would be really really helpful on speeding things along.

If anyone is even remotely interested in working on something like this, or even if you're just interested to see how it's going, please don't hesitate to contact me. I love talking about my instrument and it's progression to anyone who's willing to listen.

Take care, and great to be here.

Anirban
anirbanmukherjee73@gmail.com
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:43 PM   #2
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

Originally Posted by manirban73 View Post

3) If I can get access to a lathe and some help, I'd probably nearly faint if I could custom turn new pegs - all 23 of them, using some lightweight wood (butternut, maybe?).

Anirban
anirbanmukherjee73@gmail.com

Anriban, I would be more than happy to help you with the turning of the pegs. That is about all I could contribute to the project.
Dave
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Honestly Honey, that will cost around $100 $150 $200, and I need a few more tools.

Heard from a client..."If I had your tools and experience...I could do it myself"

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Old 09-02-2008, 08:35 PM   #3
 
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

Hi there Anirban, that sounds like an interesting project! I'd love to hear more as you go, but of course more important would be the pictures .

I am mostly a beginner, so don't have much advice to offer. One thing I noticed is your intent to use mahogany. Real mahogany is pretty much not available any more, so you may want to pick a different wood. I know Sapele can be found around (one member here, bluthart, recently sold some), which is sometimes called African Mahogany I think. Sometimes you also hear of a wood called "genuine Mahogany", which may approximate the original Mahogany but I believe it to be different also.
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:31 PM   #4
 
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

I am an amateur, so I almost hestiate to offer too much; I just made a mistake on a carved body instrument of my own the other day.

I have a few small pieces of Honduran mahogany lying around. I am not quite sure I followed your description of exactly what you are going to do with that. What size pieces do you need?

I also have a book I just posted a gloat on the other day which helps you figure out how the various thicknesses of wood at different densities and cavity size/shape all intereact to create the sound, so I could help you some with research if needed.

I am working on the same hollowing skills, so I have some of the tools for doing it, but I am not really an expert yet.

I am in Cary; PM me and we can probably get together and talk. I may have the mahogany you need and possibly the right tool and some info that might help.

I would really like to see the instrument.
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:55 PM   #5
 
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

Dave, I will certainly take you up on the offer when I get to that stage, which is a few steps away. And whatever pint you got in your hand there, I'd be more than happy to double, triple, quadruple, multiply it by whatever is in your heart's desire there (btw, I have this thing for Belgian beers).

Thanks mucho in advance for the offer.

Anirban


Originally Posted by DaveO View Post
Anriban, I would be more than happy to help you with the turning of the pegs. That is about all I could contribute to the project.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:06 PM   #6
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

Originally Posted by manirban73 View Post
Dave, I will certainly take you up on the offer when I get to that stage, which is a few steps away. And whatever pint you got in your hand there, I'd be more than happy to double, triple, quadruple, multiply it by whatever is in your heart's desire there (btw, I have this thing for Belgian beers).

Thanks mucho in advance for the offer.

Anirban
You're my friend already


Dave
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Honestly Honey, that will cost around $100 $150 $200, and I need a few more tools.

Heard from a client..."If I had your tools and experience...I could do it myself"

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:07 PM   #7
 
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

Hi Peter, thanks for the reply. My instrument isn't really real mahogany either - it's a wood called Toon found in eastern India, which approximates as Indian mahogany. There are mainly 2 different woods used for a sarod, teak and toon, and each has it's pluses and minuses when it comes to final sound, etc. Teak is heavier and produces a deeper sound, and mahogany a more crisp note - at least that's what I've heard and experienced.

At any rate, doing a search on this site, I found some lumber yards in Zebulon and around that sell African mahogany by the board foot, so I'll probably be going with that. I mainly need it to create some bracing internally to the sound chamber, and some very small add on parts. I theoretically should be able to use red cedar and/or maple too - it shouldn't affect the acoustics too much.


As an aside, my grandparents (in India) lived in Burma for a long time - my grandfather worked in the tea gardens there. Story has it that my grandmother was on the last civilian boat out of Burma when the Japanese attacked in WWII, and my grandfather walked, took boats and trains all the way around the Bay of Bengal to get back to India. But prior to that, he had 3 living room chairs made of real mahogany in Burma and shipped to Calcutta, in the late 1930's. Those chairs look as good today as they ever have, and I spent some of my childhood abusing the heck out of them. They're in my aunt's house now, but boy I sure do drool over the possibility of getting my hands on them at some point of time. I'd pay dearly to have them shipped here.

Take care,

Anirban


Originally Posted by PeteQuad View Post
Hi there Anirban, that sounds like an interesting project! I'd love to hear more as you go, but of course more important would be the pictures .

I am mostly a beginner, so don't have much advice to offer. One thing I noticed is your intent to use mahogany. Real mahogany is pretty much not available any more, so you may want to pick a different wood. I know Sapele can be found around (one member here, bluthart, recently sold some), which is sometimes called African Mahogany I think. Sometimes you also hear of a wood called "genuine Mahogany", which may approximate the original Mahogany but I believe it to be different also.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:35 PM   #8
 
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

Originally Posted by manirban73 View Post
Dave, I will certainly take you up on the offer when I get to that stage, which is a few steps away. And whatever pint you got in your hand there, I'd be more than happy to double, triple, quadruple, multiply it by whatever is in your heart's desire there (btw, I have this thing for Belgian beers).

Thanks mucho in advance for the offer.

Anirban
Just make sure you wait until after he is done turnng - or take pictures.
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:05 AM   #9
 
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

Anirban,
I have a few short pieces of Mahogany kerf strip you can have. PM me and we can figure out how to get them to you from Concord.
Mark
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:21 AM   #10
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

I also have some blocks of old real Mahogany. You are welcome to some if it help. PM me and I can give you the sizes. I also live in Cary not far from Andy.
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Old 09-03-2008, 02:14 PM   #11
 
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

This is not really a request for a custom project, just a request for help on a project. As such it really doesn't belong here, so I am moving it to General Woodworking. We don't have a Luthier's forum. Yet
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:09 PM   #12
 
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

So, I'll keep adding pictures as we go along on this project. For some reason I can't get pictures to post here - so I added them to Picasa with comments...

http://picasaweb.google.com/anirbanm.../SarodProject#

Thoughts, comments, suggestions - welcome....

Anirban
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:44 AM   #13
 
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Re: Any Amateur Luthiers Here - A very unique opportunity!

Re: item #4 - The taper for the pegs can be easily done when the pegs are turned on the lathe. For the reamer, John Alexander suggests using an appropriate sized saw blade held in a turned fruitwood or other hardwood cone with a slit cut on a saw. Put a hole in the big end to hold a long peg to turn the whole thing with. Will be glad to discuss further when you get to that point. Maybe then I'll even have time to make you one. I've made two and they work pretty well.
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