Replace a floor?

[Mike Davis]

Does anybody here do flooring work? Well, I guess it is construction work?

My kitchen needs a new floor. It's only 100 years old, but it's time. I need the whole thing taken out, joists and all. The joists are log, they are sagging.

This all started with my wife wanting a new sink, if we're getting a sink we need to replace the old cabinets and build matching overhead cabinets, if the cabinets are being replaced the floor needs to be done while the cabinets are out. If we do the floor I want to replace the joists.

So, does anybody do that kind of work? I can help. Or not.

[NCPete]

Mike, that is the sort of thing that I actually get a lot of enjoyment out of (don't ask, can't explain the neurosis/psychosis), but you are approximately a 3 hour drive from me. I watched my paternal Grandfather do this sort of work in the old farmhouse I grew up in, and had to do it with my father in an old chicken coop as well. My favorite part, however, is doing the final finish installation over a solid/well-built subfloor. When I got out of the Army almost 10 years ago, that is exactly the work I did, and more than a few houses needed extensive work on the subfloor before the finish floor could go in.

Are you interested in replacing the log joists with new logs??? or using dimensional lumber to do it? dimensional is far easier, obviously, but you happen to know more than a few sawyers who could mill up some logs to give flat/dressed surfaces to put a good floor on.

Enjoy!

[Mike Davis]

I want the most solid, long lasting, least expensive solution. I don't care if logs go back in there, doesn't have to be logs. I would even go for engineered joists.

Pete,

Everybody's 3 hours from me, how about an estimate?

The room is about 16 x 16 and there is a cellar underneath. The furnace, well tank and water heater are down there. The cellar has a concrete floor.

[Ozzie-x]

Mike,
This is no help to you probably, but I went through this same thing at my sister's house 2 years ago. Her house is our grandparent's old 1927 farmhouse and she was renovating her kitchen. She was going to put down tile and the floor was "springy", and the original plan was to install a beam mid-span to firm up the joists, take up the old diagonal subfloor and put down plywood. Well, the old rough sawed yellow pine joists were in bad shape with rot and termite damage, plus they were on odd centers that wouldn't work with the plywood. So I tore it all out and reframed it. I went back with 2x12's 16" O.C. with joist hangers, 2 rows of solid bridging, then glued and screwed 3/4" T&G plywood down on top. The crawl space was dry so I just used spruce framing, EXCEPT treated pine for the couple of joists under the sink area. It made a very solid floor and the tile has not cracked so far. One pain I remember is that all of the piping, wiring and ducts are hung from the joists and I had to get creative with interim supports for all of that when I tore out the old floor joists.

{One bonus was that the old diagonal subfloor was wormy chestnut and red & white oak and I salvaged all of that for future WW'ing projects}

I made this sound really easy but it was really difficult (total PITA? ) and took several weeks of spare time and Saturdays to get it done. The time factor and being without a kitchen are also big considerations. Another thing- I'm not finicky about anything, but the dust/mold/fungus?? in the old wood and crawl space really bothered me and I ended up having to wear a respirator-I had never had that happen before. You may want to be mindful of that, plus all the general mess and dust versus the rest of the house. We put up plastic with staples and duct tape over the door openings into the other parts of the house, and that worked well. Hope this helps.

[Mike Davis]

We can't go weeks without a kitchen, I need somebody to come in and get it done.

[NCPete]

working retail, I only ever have one day off per week. it's unfair to try to estimate job-costs site unseen... Could be unreasonably low depending on various things. Most times when a kitchen gets torn out like yours needs, we would set up an alternate kitchen, by wiring up outlets for the range, refrigerator and other kitchen appliances in a convenient space for the week or so the entire job might run...

[walnutjerry]

Originally Posted by Mike Davis

We can't go weeks without a kitchen, I need somebody to come in and get it done.

Mike-------I am in the process of redoing our kitchen. I stripped it out back to the studs and subfloor. Pete is right on all the other things to be done also-------wiring, plumbing, floor covering, etc. Unless it is an exceptional crew with excellent coordiation with electricians and plumbers I would figure no less than a month without a sink. Especially if it involves corian counter tops on new cabinets. Most likely even longer if you are trying to do as much as you can by yourself, which is what I am doing.

We are washing dishes in the bath room while all this is going on. Beats a tin tub on the back porch I guess.

Good luck on the proposed project.

Jerry

[DaveD]

I'm not a pro but I have done a few remodels including what you want done. I have also watched a number of pros do kitchens and I don't think you are going to get 'I want the most solid, long lasting, least expensive solution' along with 'quick'.

What's the standard spiel??? quality, cheap, fast, pick any two. You also didn't say if you wanted the new floor level Nothing like finding out the current floor is 2" out of level from one side to the other.

The devil is in the details.

Anything under the 16'x16' area in the basement that will slow things down? can someone just come in with a chain saw and butcher the floor out or are there pipes, wires, ducts in the way?

Is it 16x16 or just a few inches bigger (precludes 16' long floor joists). Spanning 16' (or more) for a solid kitchen floor doesn't fit the cheap scenario.

Lets say you go with engineered joists but they have to be 14" tall. Now the side walls of the cellar are too high. Got to play with the cellar wall now.

Want a particular kind of tile floor? the framer needs to know the loads so he can calc the joist size. Can he run a beam down the middle of the floor in the cellar so he only has to span 8' rather than 16'?

Any termite damage along the cellar walls? More slowdowns to investigate and fix.

I would say you would be lucky to get the kitchen done in a month, start to finish.

A good crew could tear out and reframe in a week,
Plumbing/electrical/heating/inspection another week, cabinets a couple of days, finished floor (tile?) another week and a week for incidentals like finish electrical/plumbing, final inspection and punch list. That's if the guy running the job runs a tight ship. Need some time to do the drywall too.

Blowing out the floor (and probably redoing it) is the easy part.

Also kitchens require specific 20A circuits in today's world. Is the fuse/breaker box capable of handling it? Or is this another gottcha?

I don't want to discourage you. Just want to make sure you go into this thing with your eyes wide open.

[jeff...]

Not that I am any kind of construction guy - but I did stay at a holiday in express once.

I've seen more than a few double 4x8 or 4x10 WO beams run down the center of floors in older balloon construction buildings. Beams were bolted together, to make an 8x8 or 8x10 which stood on 8x8 WO piers, one in the center and one on each end, secured to the piers with metal plates. A few wedges under the old joists to level things out. Don't know it it's doable in your instance or not but I thought I would toss it out for discussion. Because it seems to be a solid, long lasting, inexpensive solution that might could be done without tearing out the kitchen. I'm sure there are a lot more knowledgeable folks than I am in this area and with with better ideas - I'm only speaking of what I have seen done by others.

Thanks

[LeftyTom]

Originally Posted by DaveD

What's the standard spiel??? quality, cheap, fast, pick any two.

DavidD, so true: You can get is good and fast, but it won't be cheap. You can get is cheap and fast, but it won't be good. You can get it good and cheap, but it won't be fast.

[Glennbear]

Originally Posted by DaveD

I'm not a pro but I have done a few remodels including what you want done. I have also watched a number of pros do kitchens and I don't think you are going to get 'I want the most solid, long lasting, least expensive solution' along with 'quick'.

What's the standard spiel??? quality, cheap, fast, pick any two. You also didn't say if you wanted the new floor level Nothing like finding out the current floor is 2" out of level from one side to the other.

The devil is in the details.

Anything under the 16'x16' area in the basement that will slow things down? can someone just come in with a chain saw and butcher the floor out or are there pipes, wires, ducts in the way?

Is it 16x16 or just a few inches bigger (precludes 16' long floor joists). Spanning 16' (or more) for a solid kitchen floor doesn't fit the cheap scenario.

Lets say you go with engineered joists but they have to be 14" tall. Now the side walls of the cellar are too high. Got to play with the cellar wall now.

Want a particular kind of tile floor? the framer needs to know the loads so he can calc the joist size. Can he run a beam down the middle of the floor in the cellar so he only has to span 8' rather than 16'?

Any termite damage along the cellar walls? More slowdowns to investigate and fix.

I would say you would be lucky to get the kitchen done in a month, start to finish.

A good crew could tear out and reframe in a week,
Plumbing/electrical/heating/inspection another week, cabinets a couple of days, finished floor (tile?) another week and a week for incidentals like finish electrical/plumbing, final inspection and punch list. That's if the guy running the job runs a tight ship. Need some time to do the drywall too.

Blowing out the floor (and probably redoing it) is the easy part.

Also kitchens require specific 20A circuits in today's world. Is the fuse/breaker box capable of handling it? Or is this another gottcha?

I don't want to discourage you. Just want to make sure you go into this thing with your eyes wide open.

This lays out the possible "slowdowns" fairly well

Originally Posted by jeff...

Not that I am any kind of construction guy - but I did stay at a holiday in express once.

I've seen more than a few double 4x8 or 4x10 WO beams run down the center of floors in older balloon construction buildings. Beams were bolted together, to make an 8x8 or 8x10 which stood on 8x8 WO piers, one in the center and one on each end, secured to the piers with metal plates. A few wedges under the old joists to level things out. Don't know it it's doable in your instance or not but I thought I would toss it out for discussion. Because it seems to be a solid, long lasting, inexpensive solution that might could be done without tearing out the kitchen. I'm sure there are a lot more knowledgeable folks than I am in this area and with with better ideas - I'm only speaking of what I have seen done by others.

Thanks

As a condition of sale on my old house I had to "sister" 2x10's to existing center beam that had become compressed in the half century since the house was built and the buyer's engineer was happy with the result. Not expensive and it gave needed leveling and support.