DC Pipe Layout Tool

[Splinter]

Does anyone know of an online software layout tool that will design a layout for DC pipe based on the location of WW'ing tools?

[Travis Porter]

I've never seen one personally.

When I got my Oneida they did pipe drawings for me. My only issue was that it seemed like it used too many sizes of pipe. It went from 8 to 6 to 5 to 4 and that was a bit much. I have used Visio to do rough layouts where you make your main trunk line route the direction it can serve the most machines with the fewest/shortest branches.

[GeorgeL]

Splinter,

I've never seen a DC layout program. I used Sketchup to layout my shop and DC plumbing. Once I built my virtual Sketchup shop it allowed me to see how the DC ductwork would flow throughout the shop. I also caught several potential problems in advance that eliminated extra trips to the store.



George

[Alan in Little Washington]

Originally Posted by Travis Porter

I've never seen one personally.

When I got my Oneida they did pipe drawings for me. My only issue was that it seemed like it used too many sizes of pipe. It went from 8 to 6 to 5 to 4 and that was a bit much. I have used Visio to do rough layouts where you make your main trunk line route the direction it can serve the most machines with the fewest/shortest branches.

About Oneida's designs- they use different pipe sizes to keep the velocity up so dust doesn't settle in the pipe, and also to balance the system if you have two gates open at different locations, one closer to the blower, but want the same suction at both. The problem with reducing the pipe size is that you also reduce the CFM. If you have a design with minimal bends and restrictions, a large enough blower, and don't often use two machines simultaneously, you don't need to reduce the pipe size. To collect as much dust at the source- keep the pipe as large as possible, as long as possible, and that includes the machine port. Bill Pentz does a better job of describing this on his web site.

Don't worry as much about the number of branches, be more concerned about the number of bends. If I were doing George's piping it would run on a diagonal across the room instead of along the walls and at right angles. That would reduce the number of bends before the pipe gets to the high chip and dust producers like the tablesaw and planer (drum sander?) and jointer in his diagram. You want your ducting to look like a tree, not a snake. Remember, also, that a branch with closed blast gate(s) has no effect on any other part of the system- blind alleys don't affect the suction anywhere else.

[GeorgeL]

Originally Posted by Alan in Little Washington

Don't worry as much about the number of branches, be more concerned about the number of bends. If I were doing George's piping it would run on a diagonal across the room instead of along the walls and at right angles. That would reduce the number of bends before the pipe gets to the high chip and dust producers like the tablesaw and planer (drum sander?) and jointer in his diagram. You want your ducting to look like a tree, not a snake. Remember, also, that a branch with closed blast gate(s) has no effect on any other part of the system- blind alleys don't affect the suction anywhere else.

Alan,

I totally agree. However, in my situation with the steel beams spaced every 5' lowering the ceiling height to 7' feet at these locations, being 6'4" my only option was to tuck the ductwork up tight to the ceiling. I realize this is not ideal but I had to make many compromises to make this shop space work.



BTW, my bends are not actually 90° as shown here but double 45°s spaced a few feet apart to reduce loss.

George

[Alan in Little Washington]

Originally Posted by GeorgeL

Alan,

I totally agree. However, in my situation with the steel beams spaced every 5' lowering the ceiling height to 7' feet at these locations, being 6'4" my only option was to tuck the ductwork up tight to the ceiling. I realize this is not ideal but I had to make many compromises to make this shop space work.

BTW, my bends are not actually 90° as shown here but double 45°s spaced a few feet apart to reduce loss.

George

I totally understand. Even with my generally unobstructed runs along my garage ceiling (shop is above garage) I had some areas that weren't ideal. And if money weren't a concern you probably would have run more lines, to reduce the number of bends between some machines and the DC. See my comment about the filter on Splinter's DC in his other thread, also.

[Splinter]

Alan,

How would you run the DC pipe for a shop like this?



Thanks for any input.

[Alan in Little Washington]

Originally Posted by Splinter

Alan,

How would you run the DC pipe for a shop like this?



Thanks for any input.

Here is what I would do:

All pipe 6" PVC S&D (ASTM 2729).
Minimal flex from drop/blast gate to machine.
All ducts except drops run along the ceiling.
Mount the DC high so duct is as close to same height as DC input as possible

Option #1

1. put the DC outside by the lower right corner instead of in the garage (noise and dust reasons).
2. run the main lower right to upper left corner
3. once inside the shop immediately run a secondary duct coming off the main 45 deg. to the left along the wall with drops to sander & scroll saw (shared- one drop two ports), router table & bandsaw (shared- one drop two ports), third drop to drill press.
4. another secondary duct coming off main 45 deg to left with drop to jointer.
5. single drop from main to tablesaw
6. secondary duct coming off main 45 deg to the right to drop shared by planer and lathe.
7. short duct 45 deg left of main to drop for mitersaw
8. drop at the end of the main for the drum sander

Option #2 (If you really want to put DC where you show it in the garage):

1. run your main diagonally upper left to lower right (45 deg to walls).

(L/R duct runs below as viewed with back to DC)

2. once into the shop two secondary ducts 45 deg L & R along the walls to drops for drum sander, planer, and lathe (L) and mitersaw, jointer, and drill press (R).
3. secondary duct 45 deg R to bandsaw and router table shared drop
4. drop from main to tablesaw
5. about 8' past tablesaw, main takes 45 turn R, runs to wall and ends in shared drop to sander & scroll saw.

With this layout, with the possible exception for the DC hookup, the only 90 deg bend in the duct serving any tool occurs at the ceiling at the top of each drop. Everything else is a 45 and very direct run to the DC.

It would have been easier if I had printed this, drawn duct lines, and took a pic! If you can add some red lines, and repost it, I'll tell you if you have it (right )

[Splinter]

Alan,

This is the way I have planned to layout the DC pipes. I plan to run 6" S&D as close to each machine as I can and then reduce down to 4" to fit the blast gates I have and dust port on the machine.

BTW they will be under a concrete slab floor (Yes, I know) but I don't want any pipe coming down out of the ceiling to the Table Saw. I am tired of working around posts near my tablesaw in the current shop. If the shop was just dedicated to the WW shop I would build it with a raised floor but the building will server other purposes, like storage for some farm equipment, etc. and my wood storage will be in that area and I want to be able to move wood, etc. easily from one room to the other.

I plan to have a Y at each machine in the truck line to attach each machine to the main line. All will have blast gates. I plan to go to a local plumbing supply house tomorrow to see what they have available. Then I can fine tune my plan before I buy anything.

Thanks for taking the time to look at this and comments are welcome.

[Alan in Little Washington]

Originally Posted by Splinter

Alan,

This is the way I have planned to layout the DC pipes. I plan to run 6" S&D as close to each machine as I can and then reduce down to 4" to fit the blast gates I have and dust port on the machine.

BTW they will be under a concrete slab floor (Yes, I know) but I don't want any pipe coming down out of the ceiling to the Table Saw. I am tired of working around posts near my tablesaw in the current shop. If the shop was just dedicated to the WW shop I would build it with a raised floor but the building will serve other purposes, like storage for some farm equipment, etc. and my wood storage will be in that area and I want to be able to move wood, etc. easily from one room to the other.

I plan to have a Y at each machine in the truck line to attach each machine to the main line. All will have blast gates. I plan to go to a local plumbing supply house tomorrow to see what they have available. Then I can fine tune my plan before I buy anything.

Thanks for taking the time to look at this and comments are welcome.

That is close to what I would do. Suggested mods are below.

Under the slab is not bad, just has a few limitations/disadvantages: (1) can't or is very difficult to reconfigure, (2) it is harder to clear blockages. My piping is below my shop floor but runs along garage ceiling since my shop is above the garage. While working on the mitersaw station I dropped an 18" long stick into the open 6" duct and couldn't reach it, so had to disassemble a section of duct. I also dropped a tape measure down a drop luckily I could reach that one. (3) Some have reported condensation problems with under-slab ductwork.

I reconfigured my ductwork when I relocated my mitersaw, tablesaw, and jointer autogates below the floor (in the garage), and will likely add a branch for another in-floor drop near my WW bench so I can run some flex to my dovetail jig or portable sanding table. So I guess I'm saying underfloor can be good and bad.

How about, pouring a two-level slab? Set the shop half 14" -16" or so, below the garage, then you can build a raised shop floor that is flush with the garage floor. Though it would probably cost a little more money it would provide several advantages- easier to run and modify your DC piping and allow you to run electrical to the tablesaw or to any tool you might locate in the middle of the floor in the future, easier on your feet than concrete, can be insulated, etc. You could use really tough Advantech sub-flooring for your flooring (that is what I have in my shop- works great). You could just screw it down so you can lift it up later to access below.

Suggested mods to your pipe layout.

1. Start the tablesaw run right at the DC instead of from a 45 wye off the divider wall run. Instead, the wall run should 45 wye off the tablesaw run starting at the point where the 45 elbow is in your diagram. That eliminates one 45 elbow and yields a straight run from the tablesaw to the DC.

2. As suggested in my last post, continue the tablesaw run so it also serves the scroll saw and sander. In a right triangle, a diagonal is shorter than the sum of the two sides, so the distance from DC to the sander would be shorter on the diagonal, plus air would not need to negotiate a 90 (45 + 45, which is only slightly better than a single 90).

3. As I said in the last post, stop the divider wall run at the drill press.

4. Add a 45 wye off the tablesaw run that runs to the bandsaw and router table. This totally eliminates the 90 (45 + 45) at the drill press, eliminates one 45 fitting, replaces one 45 with a 45 wye, and likely takes no more pipe. One less fitting, eliminates a 90 change in direction, and is better for flow- a win, win, win.

I don't recommend dropping down to 4" for any reason (use 6" everywhere- gates, 6" ports, machine, ports), but if you do insist on dropping to 4" do it above the slab or floor so you can change them later. Here is what Bill Pentz says on his site about duct size:

"Whether you have a modest 1/2 HP 600 CFM blower to a roaring 5 HP maximum 2300 CFM blower you need to balance the ducting size. We constantly trade off our ducting size to move the right air volume at ample speed with minimum resistance. To get the needed 800 CFM that larger tools need for good fine dust collection through a 4" duct or hose you need about 9,000 FPM that takes a monster impeller and huge motor. That's why knowledgeable woodworkers use 6" ducts and 6" flex right to their larger machines even with portable dust collectors. Without a monster blower, if your duct is smaller than 6" to your larger machines, then it will not move enough air to capture the fine, most unhealthy dust. The best you can hope to do is make your system a little more efficient."

You may have difficulty finding true wye fittings for ASTM 2729 S&D pipe. The only type of wye I have seen is the 45 wye which is fine, but you will need to take that into account when you design your drops.

Unless you have a cantilevered overarm blade guard/dust pickup don't dismiss out of hand a pipe or hose over your tablesaw. When I redid my ductwork to put the blast gates behind my knee wall, I added a 4" duct that runs behind the ceiling drywall up over the tablesaw. Eventually (a round-tuit ) it will connect to a 4" duct that angles down to an over-blade dust pickup. The duct will be hinged about 18" above the table so, if needed, I can fold it up out of the way.

Keep us updated on your progress.

Plumbing for over-blade dust pickup:



Wall board repair:



A short section of flex will connect this fitting to the duct that runs to the over-blade dust pickup. The wire will connect to a microswitch that will disable the autogate (that is behind the kneewall) whenever the dust pickup is not needed and folded up out of the way.

[Splinter]

Alan,

I think this layout (Rev 2) is what you are talking about? You are right the amount of pipe is almost the same and much straighter to the DC.

On this layout I think I would use a 45, a short piece of pipe and another 45 at the ends of the runs to get the pipe out of the ground/cement nearer the walls rather than just one 45 and a piece of pipe. That way it will not have to come out further in the floor from the walls.

Again thanks for your input on the layout.



Alan,

Is this 4" S&D pipe on the ends of the flex pipe? Did you do anything special to make them fit or just stuff the flex in and let friction hold it?

Do you have a patten on the blast gate? Nice. Did you make any like this in 6"?

I might be able to convert my tablesaw and joiner to 6" ports but I don't see any way to convert the other machines.

[Travis Porter]

Option 2 makes more sense to me as well. Looks very similar to the layout Oneida did for my collector.

[Alan in Little Washington]

Originally Posted by Splinter

Alan,

I think this layout (Rev 2) is what you are talking about? You are right the amount of pipe is almost the same and much straighter to the DC.

On this layout I think I would use a 45, a short piece of pipe and another 45 at the ends of the runs to get the pipe out of the ground/cement nearer the walls rather than just one 45 and a piece of pipe. That way it will not have to come out further in the floor from the walls.

Again thanks for your input on the layout.

Yup, that's exactly what I meant!!!! I think it just streamlines everything right to the DC.

Alan,

Is this 4" S&D pipe on the ends of the flex pipe? Did you do anything special to make them fit or just stuff the flex in and let friction hold it?

I used two leftover pipe bell ends (3" of bell and 3" of pipe) and just forced the 6" flex into the wider bell part. A little water with dish washing soap and some elbow grease and the flex can be stuffed in there. My poor man's quick disconnects work just fine!!!

Do you have a patten on the blast gate? Nice. Did you make any like this in 6"?

No pattern, I just sized them to what looked good. These are 6" (a three 4") as you see in the pic below. The gates were made with half of a 6" connector on one side (female side) and a section of S&D pipe on the other (male side). The pipe was glued with poly glue (Gorilla) into pieces of mdf with one end flush with one face of the mdf. After the glue hardened I made sure no PVC stood proud of the MDF, then laminated the faces with scraps of laminate (Formica). I drilled a hole in the middle of the laminate, and widened and trimmed the opening on my router table with a flush trim bit. I made the gate slides from two pieces of laminate glued back to back. In operation with laminate slide against gate body and with a little wax, the slides move effortlessly, with no friction!!!!! To assemble the gate I inserted the slide between the gate halves using a piece of heavy paper stock for extra space, and clamped the halves together. Then I joined the halves at the edges with some glue and laminate. I used a pencil to trace the opening onto the slide, then cut the opening in the slide carefully freehand on the router table. I set up a production line to make the seven 6" and three 4" gates. Here is a pic of the completed halves waiting to be joined together.


[qoute]
I might be able to convert my tablesaw and joiner to 6" ports but I don't see any way to convert the other machines.[/quote]

My three 4" gates/ports service my drill press (minimal dust), router table (plenty of suction), and belt/disk sanding station (I will likely increase that to 6")

[Splinter]

Alan,

Thanks so much for your advise on the DC layout and tips on the blast gates. Maybe others here can benefit from this also.

Now if the "stars will line up just right" I might be able to get this new "Dream Shop" project started before much longer.

A local plumbing supply has the S&D fittings and pipe so I am good there.

[Alan in Little Washington]

You are welcome!

By the way, if you have scraps of melamine (melamine over particle that they sell at HD) that will work as well as laminate over mdf for the gate bodies, saves having to do some laminating.

You lucked out finding S&D local. I started that way, but my local supplier went out of business. When I recently redid some of the duct work to raise the ports and add the autogates, I thought I needed one more length. I got ripped off at John Deere Landscapes. Luckily, it turned out I didn't need the pipe after all and was able to return it. What is a 10' length of 6" S&D going for now?

So, what did you think about the idea of a two-level slab and raised shop floor? After I wrote that I thought to achieve the two level slab with the water and drainage issues here in E. NC it would actually be better to raise the garage half of the slab on (fill?) so you could pour the shop half of the slab just a tad above grade.

Don't forget we want to see pics to follow the shop progress.

If you are ever up this way, give me a jingle and I will give you the .25 tour of my shop.