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Old 03-05-2006, 10:49 AM   #1
Buying Lumber
 
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walnutjerry walnutjerry is offline 03-05-2006, 10:49 AM

I ran across a message on another woodworking site I thought informative about buying lumber. http://forums.taunton.com/fw-materia...8.7&redirCnt=1 For those faced with the confussion on grades it may offer some insight on the situation.

Cheers, Jerry

PS you can view the posts without paying for a membership------you may have to register but I am not sure about that. It may be you can view the posts as a guest but can't reply to them without registration.

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Old 03-05-2006, 11:34 AM   #2
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Re: Buying Lumber

Thanks that is some good information.
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Old 03-05-2006, 08:49 PM   #3
 
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Re: Buying Lumber

A bit more of information on grading, pricing and buying lumber. This is a reply I received from a post on another site.

Cheers, Jerry
168.10 in reply to 168.8 The website of the NHLA is http://www.natlhardwood.org/
"do they round down if under the .5 mark? 1.4 going to 1?"
That is what is typically done. If it falls exactly on the .5 then it is tallied alternately up and down. A grader is allowed up to 4% in money value to be off when someone comes from the NHLA to settle a dispute. The NHLA will only grade the lumber when both parties agree to abide by the NHLA grader.
Tapered lumber is measured 1/3 the length from the narrow end. All hardwood lumber is measured around the outside curve of the width. It would seem to measure more, but in fact measures less.
Graders typically have no ambition to cheat customers. In fact if they get called on their grading they will usually be without a job. The hardwood lumber business is a tight business. Anyone who cheats another gets knows rather fast at the conferences.
All the cheating I have seen is done in the office.
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Old 03-05-2006, 10:47 PM   #4
 
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Re: Buying Lumber

Wow............interesting response you received. One of the guys at East Wake Hardwood was using one of those HW measuring sticks to determine the BF of the lumber I was buying and he was kind enough to explain how it was used along with some of the rules used for rounding up or down.

D L
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Old 03-05-2006, 10:57 PM   #5
 
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Smile Re: Buying Lumber

Sounds like you were dealing with an honest merchant. I think most of them are---------once in a while you get a bad apple that gives a bad perspective on others.

Jerry
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Old 03-09-2006, 10:38 PM   #6
 
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Re: Another response tp Buying Lumber

[quote=D L Ames]Wow............interesting response you received. One of the guys at East Wake Hardwood was using one of those HW measuring sticks to determine the BF of the lumber I was buying and he was kind enough to explain how it was used along with some of the rules used for rounding up or down.

D L[/qu

I have never heard this explanation before----seems to be the simplest so far. Jerry
168.13 in reply to 168.5 Lumber is usually sold 2 ways, green tally and net tally.
Green tally is the dimension (width) of the lumber before it was dried and the price is lower than net tally which is the actual measure. The difference is 7% (dimension and price)
If the people you are dealing with are honest it should come out about the same but some measure green and charge net. When asking a price, make them specifie if it's net or green tally (also called gross tally)
By the way widths are measured from 1/2" to 1/2". IE 5-3/4" is measured 6" - 5-1/4 is measured 5" if it falls on the 1/2" you should alternate once above and once below.
C.


ote]
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Old 03-10-2006, 10:15 AM   #7
 
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Re: Buying Lumber

A link to an article about buying lumber locally
in RTP area:
http://www.just4fun.org/woodworking/...ing_lumber.htm

HTH.

Pinwu
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Old 03-10-2006, 10:46 AM   #8
 
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Re: Buying Lumber

You cant use NHLA rules for softwood but here is a good primer from Sawmill and Woodlot magazine. I was in this magazine in 2003


This article from Independent Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine covers the basics. September 21, 2001

Today, NHLA grading rules are not only the dominant grading system for hardwood lumber in the United States, but also form the basis for much of the international trade in hardwoods.

Most hardwood lumber produced in this country is graded using the rules developed and maintained by the National Hardwood Lumber Association (NHLA). In 1897, hardwood lumber producers and users formed the NHLA to standardize the grading of hardwood lumber. Prior to that time, individual mills had their own grading systems for their local markets. The original NHLA grading rules were based on the number and size of defects as the major criteria. This changed in the early 1930's to grading rules based on the amount and size of clear cuttings. Other than slight modifications every once and awhile, the rules have been relatively stable since that time.

There are eight hardwood lumber grades in widespread use today. FAS is the highest and No. 3B Common is the lowest. In short, the higher grades of lumber have more large clear area than the lower grades. The basic concept of grading is that the grade of all lumber is determined from the poorest face or side of the lumber, with a few cases considering the better face as well. Lumber thickness (4/4, 6/4, etc.) is not considered when grading hardwood; the grades are based on the two faces alone.

A brief description of the basic grades are:

* FAS, which was years ago short-hand for the grade of "First and Seconds," which in turn originated from a combination of the very old grade of "Firsts" and the grade of "Seconds," is the highest grade of hardwood lumber. Most FAS lumber is exported rather than cut in the U.S. as its value, kiln-dried, is often more than $2 per board foot on the wholesale market.

* FAS 1-Face (F1F abbreviation) is a Select piece of lumber that is 6 inches and wider.

* Select is a No. 1 Common piece of lumber (the poorer side grades No. 1 Common) and the reverse side (the better side) grades FAS. The price of Selects and 1-Face is usually the same as FAS. Much of this grade is also exported, but if exceptionally long, wide, and clear on both faces, cuttings are required, then Select lumber is often used. Often, Select grade lumber is used in the Northern U.S., while 1-Face is used in the South.

* No. 1 Common (often called Common or just No. 1) is the standard furniture grade lumber, and provides a good selection of long, medium length, and short cuttings at a reasonable price.

* No. 2A Common (often just called No. 2 Common) has become the standard grade for cabinets, millwork, and other uses requiring medium to short cuttings. Often current prices favor using No. 2 Common instead of No. 1 common for furniture, even though yields are lower with No. 2.

* No. 2B Common is the same as No. 2A Common, except that stain and other sound defects are admitted in the clear cuttings. It is an excellent paint grade.

* No. 3A Common (which is often combined with No. 3B Common and the combination is sold as No. 3 Common) is widely used for flooring and pallets.

* No. 3B Common is graded on the basis of sound cuttings rather than clear cuttings. It is widely used for pallets and crating.

When cutting hardwood lumber into a usable piece of wood, often referred to as parts, the ratio of the volume of parts to the volume of lumber is called yield, and is usually expressed in percentages. In general, the higher the grade of lumber, the higher the yield. However, Select and 1-Face lumber usually have a yield (clear on both faces) that is the same as No. 1 Common lumber.

Unlike softwood lumber, where the grade reflects the strength and therefore the load carrying capacity and safety of a particular piece when used in construction, hardwood lumber grading does not require a certified or licensed grader. Anyone can grade; however, a trained grader will probably be more accurate and quicker than an untrained grader.

Also, unlike softwood lumber, hardwood lumber is not marked with a uniform system of symbols or stamps indicating the grade, although there may be some crayon marks that make sense to a grader or a particular mill.

The grading rules are quite complex and require study. Some of the basic concepts and grading requirements or rules are given in Table 1. The steps for grading a piece of lumber are straightforward. For example, consider a piece of lumber that is 6 and 7/16 inches wide and 10 feet 9 inches long (Figure 1).


Figure 1. Shown are two possible clear cuttings of a hardwood board.

Step 1. Determine the species. Some species have special rules that must be considered.

Step 2. Determine the surface measure (SM) of the lumber. SM is the width, in inches and fractions, times the standard length in feet with no fractions or rounding, and then divided by 12, and this answer rounded to the closest whole number. For our example, SM=(6-7/16 x 10)/12=5.36=5 feet.

Step 3. Determine the poor face, which is the side with the lowest grade, or if both sides are the same, the face with the least clear area when grading.

Step 4. Assume a trial grade for the piece of lumber and then see if all the conditions for that grade are met. For our example, assume No. 1 Common.

Step 5. Determine if the lumber size requirements-length and width-are met for the chosen grade. For our example, the minimum lumber size of 3 inches x 4 feet is met.

Step 6. Determine the number of clear cuttings (or sound cuttings for No. 2B and 3B Common and certain other cases) that are permitted. Note that often you can take an extra cutting, but then the yield requirement is increased. Always drop any fractions; do not round up. In our example, the number of cuttings permitted is (5+1)/3=2 at 66 2/3 percent yield. You can take 3 cuttings if you increase the yield to 75 percent.

Step 7. Determine the cutting yield required by multiplying the SM by 10 (FAS), 8 (No. 1), 6 (No. 2), 4 (No. 3A), or 3 (No. 3B). These numbers increase to 11, 9, and 8 for FAS, No. 1 and No. 2 respectively, if you take an extra cutting. The yield required is expressed in cutting units. A cutting unit is 1 inch wide by 1 foot long. In our example, the cutting units required is SMx8=5x8=40 units in two cuttings or 5x9=45 units in three cuttings.

Step 8. Locate cuttings to obtain the maximum area; then, calculate the cutting area. Make sure the cuttings' sizes are not below the minimum size for the trial grade. A cutting that is 5-1/2 inches wide and 4-1/3 feet long is 6-1/2x4-1/3=28-1/6 cutting units. Measure cutting width using inches and fractions, and length using feet and fractions. Do not round the answer, but keep the fractions. In our example, there are two large cuttings; both meet the minimum cutting sizes of 4 inches x 2 feet or 3 inches x 3 feet. The first is 6-7/16 inches x 4 feet, which gives 25-3/4 cutting units. The second is 5 inches x 4 feet, which gives 20 cutting units. The total for these two cuttings is 45-3/4 cutting units which is greater than the 40 required for No. 1 Common. There is no need to take an extra cutting.

Step 9. When the piece grades No. 1 common, check the reverse side to see if the reverse is FAS grade. If so, and if a few other requirements are satisfied, then the piece is Select or FAS 1-Face.

Step 10. Check to make sure that the piece qualifies for the anticipated grade in all other respects, which include the amount of wane (1/2 the length for FAS, for example), the amount of pitch outside the cuttings, and so on.

Clear cuttings are rectangular shaped areas, parallel to the edges of the lumber (not diagonal) that are free of knots on the grading face, and free of rot, pith, shake, and wane throughout the entire cutting as it is projected to the opposite face. The various cuttings cannot overlap each other. Mineral stain is admitted.

Sound cuttings are identical to clear cuttings except sound defects (such as knots, small holes, some discolorations, etc.) are admitted.

End Article
------------------


There are NHLA grading courses available in Memphis Tennessee I am interested in the short course and the 3 month course is much more intensive.
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:08 AM   #9
 
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Re: Buying Lumber

Thank you for that reply Kyle,-------it is really informative. The more we can understand the grading the wiser buyer we can be when we go to market. I think that will help everyone decide if a low ball price is really a good price. We need to compare apples for apples. You are absolutely correct on not using NHLA guidelines for softwoods. That is another ball game. I more often use the hardwoods for what I do so that is where I have the most interest. I do feel that we should exercise the same approach in buying softwoods also----get educated on the grades.

I don't think we have a lot of suppliers intentionally gouging. Occasionall we will find a clerk that really does not know the business as well as they should. I do not wish to discredit anyone but things happen sometimes and if we know it is not right, we do not have to make the purchase.

I hope the information you posted will help make some happy shoppers when it comes to buying lumber. Thanks again for that input!!

Jerry
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:19 AM   #10
 
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Re: Buying Lumber

Originally Posted by fsdogwood
A link to an article about buying lumber locally
in RTP area:
http://www.just4fun.org/woodworking/...ing_lumber.htm

HTH.

Pinwu
Thanks for the response, it appears you do your homework. Those new to woodworking should learn to do that early on, it may save some grief down the road.
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Old 03-10-2006, 12:02 PM   #11
 
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Re: Buying Lumber

Thats some good info there Kyle. I know I learned a few things.
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Old 03-10-2006, 03:43 PM   #12
 
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Re: Buying Lumber

Originally Posted by walnutjerry
Thanks for the response, it appears you do your homework. Those new to woodworking should learn to do that early on, it may save some grief down the road.
Gotta claim that that was not my website, but I found it very helpful
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Old 03-10-2006, 06:32 PM   #13
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Re: Buying Lumber

Originally Posted by fsdogwood
A link to an article about buying lumber locally
in RTP area:
http://www.just4fun.org/woodworking/...ing_lumber.htm

HTH.

Pinwu
That is a member by the name of Vanguard's site. It's a wealth of information. It's a shame he doesn't get around here much.
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Honestly Honey, that will cost around $100 $150 $200, and I need a few more tools.

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